The fact that similar works remain inaccessible to the masses is perhaps a necessity

danielescarpetti wrote:

I think that things are moving and that "common sense" and "being right" will have to triumph, sooner or later, and that even these great composers will have the place that rightfully belongs to them in the field of music history.

I think they already have it, but perhaps that is not the crux of the matter. I have read the topic passionately (and greedily); at one point someone (I don't remember who, sorry, so many lines) speaks of potential.

Exactly, potentially with the internet everyone can, but how many do as Luca or you Daniele do, who are not strictly professionals in the field but are deeply interested ( ) in culture.

And to tell you the truth, I think people say "professionals" just to be quick and to avoid being "snobbish," saying for example "cultured" or "uncultured" .... but the substance is the same: if someone has studied they are cultured otherwise not; a professional is in a certain way "forced" to be so, or rather, it is their mandate, and there are still many who pretend nothing is happening. So, honor to you, and I am honored to be able to speak with you... but once there was the excuse that the masses were kept in check and "steered," the means weren't there; now one can do exactly everything they want (returning to the word 'want') to do... but then, do they actually do it? Do you know the song "Il Pulcino Pio"? Gold record...

Now, take any track published in this forum by any forum member... after the gold record, what exists? I hope that has conveyed the idea well.

danielescarpetti wrote:

On October 6th, the Golden Lion for lifetime achievement was presented in Venice to the composer and conductor Pierre Boulez, now the last among the living composers of what was defined as the Darmstadt Avant-garde.

In reality, there is also a certain Krzysztof Penderecki. I don't know if you are familiar with his music, but it is by far more listenable than Boulez, even more "theatrical," if you'll excuse the exaggeration.

danielescarpetti wrote:

This distinguished recognition, albeit late, comes to reward one of the greatest composers of the twentieth century and, probably today, the greatest living one - I say this with respect toward all other composers

Among the living it could be, given the recent deaths... but I wouldn't underestimate people like Arvo Pärt for instance, look at his latest production. Furthermore, speaking of those who have very recently passed away, the true colossus is Messiaen.... as they say, cut off from the academic world... which by definition means the cultured world.

Still thinking about the last century, if I had to go back, I wouldn't even mention Boulez, but rather Mahler. It is clear that if you give an award when only one of many is still alive... so much for a late recognition.
Let us remember that Morricone won the Nobel Prize for music...
http://www.pianoconc...l-per-la-musica

...there is evidently something not working in this reasoning, and we are still in the internet age! Eh!

Pulcino Pio and the Nobel Prize to Morricone, Tiger notes. Music, like the arts and entertainment, is also effectively subject to so-called "market" choices. Thus, it would seem to the masses, to put it in Frank's words. Or to the many uneducated, if I have understood Tiger's thought correctly.

"Market" is a term that evokes many suggestions, a word that seeks to imply a very broad concept. In reality, "market" is a term that has no meaning, but is only useful for hiding the existence of social, economic, and political hierarchies that hold absolutely uncontrolled power over the entire global society. The mythology of the "market" covers an economic and political reality in which the power of oligarchies is guaranteed by a vast amount of protectionism of all kinds.

The music "market," like any other, is in the hands of private businessmen. Professional music feeds on commercial operations without any competition, because the owners of the various companies, who are involved in this business in various capacities, split the enormous profits derived from it. They all benefit from it, because the costs are paid by the public (who consume shows, records, book editions, gadgets, and related clothing), by the labor of those who depend (either overtly or covertly) on these companies, and very often by all taxpayers.
The political institution is tasked with maintaining these privileges, and never with dismantling them, simply because any professional politician depends on business groups.

Italy, even more so than other European countries, is subject to the power of the United States and the Atlantic Alliance. "Artistic" hierarchies inevitably reflect those of the various nations. The largest global multinationals are Anglo-American, Swiss, and French. The Russians are super-producers of raw materials. South American countries are escaping US control because their business partners, Russia but especially China, have skillfully created a dense network of protections around them.

The true lost continent today is therefore Europe, which pays an enormous tribute to Anglo-Saxon dominance in the first place, but also suffers the consequences of the infinite struggle between Americans on one side and Russians and Chinese on the other. Given that culture, including musical culture, has always been essentially of European origin, there is therefore not much to be surprised about regarding the state of affairs. In all fields.

We are going a bit off the cuff...

since some interesting topics have been brought up, open some other threads so we can discuss them in depth. I don't know, something about the post-Darmstadt era, or the ethics of the composer (see Beethoven), or about the market and awards. It is a shame to lose these insights, but here everything becomes too "centrifugal" :-)

You're right, Thallo. The fact is that Frank has started a topic as interesting as it is vast. And it's easy to get lost in such abundance.

thallo wrote:

since interesting topics have been brought up, open some other topics so we can discuss them in depth.

o on the market and awards. It is a shame to lose these insights, but here everything becomes too "centrifugal" :-)

Regarding awards, actually it already exists, it was even reported ... what do you think?

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/1777-premi-nobel-per-la-musica/

Dog does not eat dog:

http://corrieredelveneto.corriere.it/veneto/notizie/cultura_e_tempolibero/2012/21-maggio-2012/leone-d-oro-carriera-luca-ronconi-il-teatro-pierre-boulez-la-musica-201274588205.shtml

... I doubt that the Biennale took the Britten of the moment into consideration

I meant more intangible forms of recognition :-) but okay

What did you have in mind Thallo, maybe you could open the topic by making a nice introduction

thallo wrote:

i meant more intangible forms of recognition :-) but ok

ah, I hadn't understood... we were talking about the "Golden Lion" ... so I did 1+1 ...