The first scale

I simply don't know, I can tell you that in a documentary I saw about the paintings in the Chauvet cave (30,000 years ago)

a scholar played a flute that he had reconstructed himself, a flute that performed an E major pentatonic. Who knows if they also knew accidentals... Anyway, it's quite a leap to say that this is the first or the only one, or even that it is a scale! The scholar in question might have applied performance techniques that are traditional and banal to us which lead to performing this pentatonic, but who knows how they played this flute.

I find it an interesting story regardless.

Ciao

It is a very complex discussion and probably no one will ever have an answer. The underlying methodological problems are so many that, currently, almost no one dedicates themselves to these themes anymore, at least not from a "pure", philosophical point of view. As Micamahler points out, the only way to obtain data is through paleology, paleoanthropology.

Regarding the history of Greek music, one thing is reasonably certain, however: the Greek musical system had a concept of "scale" very different from ours.

I would say that on this theme, literature definitely directs us toward the Greek path. Starting from a purely scientific concept regarding the nature of sound, the organization of sounds into a "scheme" must certainly have arisen from a need for "order" within chaos. Schoenberg partly maintains that we come from chaos and to chaos we shall return, meaning by chaos only a greater range of sonorities to draw from because, as many say, possible sonic explorations are now exhausted... true? perhaps who knows

I was saying that in my view our Greek cousins had a great responsibility, at least in formalizing the idea for the first time.

You will have already understood that I am talking about Pythagoras. I am certain that the discussion is not entirely his own creation, but rather who knows how many other discussions held at a bar with his technical friends and musicians like himself; however, since we have carried so much of his way of reasoning with us, I believe much could be researched in that.

The tool from 30,000 years ago certainly dismantles what has been said so far or, and it would be even more beautiful and would further support Schoenberg's philosophy, it opens horizons to a sort of "previous life" of the melodic structure of music and (who knows) perhaps harmony...

Musicological research is unfortunately not one of the cultural investments of our country, but it would be truly interesting to discover part of this new hypothetical world we are talking about...

hi Marchelloantonio... welcome!

Effectively there is no money, but getting to the essence of things is something fascinating. And the theme you are proposing is intriguing.

almost ten years ago, reflecting on these things, I felt like correcting the statement "music is the art of sounds"

by changing it to "music is the art of some sounds (not all)". which is quite evident: historically and geographically.

As for why those specific sounds... I thought of a need to divide the sonic space well, rationally.

And, bringing into play (in my view, necessarily) also issues of harmony consonance/dissonance... everything starts from the octave interval.

Two frequencies in an octave interval sound 'together' (in agreement) like no other pairing. Well.

It is a matter of 'filling' this leap in the most intelligent way possible. Or perhaps in the most beautiful way. Or perhaps both things together.

In architecture (I am a surveyor, I have never read Schoenberg's manual, although I know who Schoenberg was) in architecture to connect two levels of equal importance, one uses stairs. Generally (is that an intelligent thing!?) there are two flights and an intermediate landing.

I have the feeling that the intermediate landing - in our case the interval of a fifth (or a fourth if you go down) - is something suggested by nature: by the physics of sound bodies. This "feeling" (an idea I got into my head) I had once hearing the unlubricated hinges of the iron door from the cellar to the garages whistling, making two sounds... and humming/imitating it, it seemed like an interval of a fourth to me.

Another time when I was alone at home, I thought I heard the beginning of Beethoven's Ninth... then I realized it was the refrigerator motor.

Did that motor emit two frequencies? And was one in a fifth interval with the other?... and for what purpose would they have "designed it" like that?.. intentionally?... In my opinion, no.

There. In my view, it is a very natural thing that there exists, in music, a ground floor, a first floor, and an intermediate landing: that ground floor, that first floor, that landing. Frequency > upper octave > intermediate fifth.

Then the need arises to fill those two leaps with intermediate steps which, in architecture, are rather dangerous.

In music, those two leaps (fourth and fifth) are perhaps a bit.... empty?

But even emptiness is a danger... it generates fear...

But here I stop. My pen is not up to this.

Long live Pythagoras... and his friends at the bar

If by scale one means the first ordering of notes in a logical sequence, some reasoning can be done, but it is important to know that we cannot know what the right or complete answer is, as we do not know everything about history, but only what has reached us.

Surely the Greeks are a good area of study; they went as far as organizing musical space into an orderly succession of sounds which they defined as "harmony". This system was called teleion ("perfect") and was based on the range of the human voice and instruments. This theory was developed by Aristoxenus and perfected and expanded by Ptolemy. The system consisted of a series of 15 sounds arranged in descending succession, with the addition of one sound to the bass to complete the two octaves.

The organization of these was divided into fractions of 4 sounds or "tetrachords" (descending) enclosed within the range of a fourth, the fundamental cell of all Greek musical theory. The extreme sounds of the tetrachord were fixed, while the internal ones were mobile; 3 different types of tetrachord were distinguished: diatonic, chromatic, and enharmonic.

The tetrachord is the primary constituent element of the "modes," formed by two disjointed tetrachords of the same species. The position of the semitone within the diatonic tetrachord defined the mode; we find:

The Dorian mode: it had the low semitone, of Greek origin; it was the national mode, more than a simple mode, it was the "archetype" of the diatonic genre (C. Sachs). Heroic and warlike character.

The Phrygian mode: it had the semitone in the center, probably of Oriental origin.

The Lydian mode: the semitone was at the high end, also probably of Oriental origin.

Then I would also suggest taking a look at Pythagoras, who also dealt with acoustic aspects and the sound phenomenon. Invention of the monochord, an instrument with a string stretched over a sound box: a movable bridge modified its string length.

To obtain the consonant sound of an octave higher, one must make half of the string itself vibrate (expressed by the numerical ratio 2:1); to obtain the fifth, one must make two-thirds of its length vibrate (2:3), and so on.

Thanks to this experience, Pythagoras succeeded in proposing the first diatonic scale and many of the intervals that still govern the laws of Western musical acoustics today.

So, very generally speaking, I have nothing at hand, but there are several interesting articles on the subject.

but, well, harmonies and modes were not intended in a scalar way. Just as Gregorian modes were not. The misunderstanding arrived with Renaissance theories, such as Glareanus's dodecachordon.

To summarize, because I am not an expert and the matter is technical:

in the archaic period, it is known that in Greece there existed "nomoi" (sing. "nomos"), which were, probably, "modes," meaning a sort of combination of melody-types and harmony-types.

These "nomoi" were standardized into "harmoniai" (sing. "harmonia") which were, originally, the tuning systems of instruments. In a perspective of theoretical systematization of an already widely existing practice, they became that list of tetrachords that would later become synonymous with Gregorian modes in Europe. So, in Greece, they probably had a nature that was still non-scalar but modal. They had an ethos, specific usage situations, preferred instruments, preferred texts, etc...

From there, also likely in a perspective of theoretical systematization, that great system called "Teleion" was created, which lists all "possible" sounds by giving them a true scalar succession. It is only at this moment that the "harmoniai" begin to be considered scales starting from different notes of the teleion system. Previously, their identity was different, more complex.

Ultimately, the concept of scale as we understand it has often been intended as a theoretical systematization of a set of sounds belonging to a modality.

A while ago, a conversation came up regarding the Neapolitan sixth chord. That chord is often defined as part of a hypothetical "Neapolitan scale" of which, as far as I know, there is no trace. More likely, only that chord exists, which arises from a modal system in which not all sounds and not all harmonies are expressions of the sounds of a scale.

P.S.

Schoenberg is as much an expert on Greek music as Razzi is on Italian literature...

Frank, would you be so kind as to send me some technical articles on the subject?

Thallo, no way

"Schoenberg is as much an expert in Greek music as Razzi is in Italian literature..." on this I cannot follow you.... Schoenberg, in his "Theory of Harmony" in the chapter on the "Minor Mode," when speaking of Gregorian modes, also includes references to Greek modes, considering them of fundamental importance for understanding the origin of modal choices and, if I remember correctly, he also recommends some literature on the subject

In any case, an interesting discussion and a level of respect all around, so it was a great pleasure to have spoken about it.

Thank you all.

I repeat, let's leave the discussion open for anyone who would like to recommend some literature on the subject; I would be truly very interested!

Thank you all

Well, there will surely be a lot of interesting articles on JSTOR

http://www.jstor.org/

If I have understood the purpose of your question, perhaps you are not so interested in the invention of the first scale in a strict sense (which is relatively well-known history), but rather in how sounds began to show they had an aesthetic function in relation to a "logical quality."
If this is your interest and if you want to take a long-view approach, regarding Greece you must go back at least as far as Terpander (for example, a recent text http://books.google.it/books/about/Terpander.html?id=NwOFmgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y)
On the other hand, the aoidoi were even more ancient and, probably before being passed down in writing, epic was likely sung since this facilitated its memorization. It might not be so bold, therefore, to find a convergence between the formation of written metrics and that of music...
If you then want to go even further back, remember that in India, in the Vedas, they were already speaking of the "science of music" (I do not have a fresh memory of the subject, but there should be abundant material online).

At the bottom of all this
"What then shall we say about ancient music, and how could we judge it with the instrument of our reasoning mind alone? For here instinct fails us. We lack an indispensable element of investigation:
namely, the sensation of the music itself.
Stravinsky, Poetics of Music

You cannot download from JSTOR unless you have a paid profile, however...

So, the best thing is to find a library from which you can download JSTOR articles as you please :-) which are obviously all in English...

And while we're at it, some good musicological encyclopedias (Grove above all) from which to photocopy the entry "Greek music."

The problem with ancient musical treatises is that it is a VERY technical subject. To understand it, you need very well-curated critical editions. And since the material is, anyway, very scarce, an overall view is often not achieved unless various sources are combined.

It's a bit of the reason why there are truly very few experts in ancient Greek music in the world...

Eleonora Rocconi's curriculum, the only expert in Greek music I know. She teaches in Cremona...

http://musicologia.unipv.it/organizzazione/personale/curricula/rocconi.html

There are a few books and articles cited, but I haven't studied her texts, so I wouldn't know... unfortunately, I have studied the delirious writings of Paolo Emilio Carapezza, who teaches a bit of everything in Palermo