The Greatest Timbral Qualities in Music History: Messiaen and Shostakovich

Carlos wrote:

OT declared. I didn't even remember this discussion and went back to reread it. I am not offended at all, but it bothers me greatly, I say this honestly, that one says "without ever stepping on others' susceptibilities" and then calls my message arrogant while not stigmatizing the message of the user I replied to, who in turn made fun of another user in theirs. If messages like mine "drive guests away," messages like yours are to say the least unhelpful and make one lose the desire to interact. Here we are talking about music, and I am a professional: therefore, if I read a message from an amateur telling another professional "go further and listen to something," I intervene. This is my way of expressing my esteem for someone else. But it is a habit I've had since I was a child: if someone said something stupid directed at one of my friends, I would respond and they would call me the "little lawyer." I need to stop. Now as then, it is not appreciated, and if I even have to be reprimanded, it's not worth it... the next step is "watch out, I'll make a fool of you!" and frankly...

PS: as for being the subject of comments like mine, I respond calmly by saying that if I were talking about things I don't know and making fun of those who answer me, assuming it is they who do not know what they are talking about, well, I would say I would have little to complain about. But I believe that can hardly happen, since if I don't know something, I ask; I don't talk about it.

PPS: to you too, Simone, all my esteem. We speak openly precisely for that reason, but for the sake of frankness, I felt I had to tell you.

OT declared also regarding mine and I HOPE definitively.

I'll start by saying that it's not that I wake up in the morning and vent to the first person I meet; I am aware of the fact that I am not a very normal person (not in a positive sense), but not to this extent...

Here we are not talking so much about the content of the messages as about the tone. Before talking about the tone, however, I will come to the content.

We are in a forum frequented by users from different backgrounds, and the approach we wanted to take was precisely this: to create a meeting point where opinions and knowledge can be exchanged amicably; everyone contributes what they can, sometimes new things are learned, other times new things are taught to others, but we did not want to create a community where there are those who know to whom everything is permitted and those who do not know who must stay quiet and listen or, at most, ask for the floor in the ways indicated by those who know. Everyone promotes their thoughts according to their own ways, which sometimes may seem obvious or even wrong to us, but which can be respectively integrated or corrected in the right ways. There are professionals, there are music teachers, graduates, conductors, composers—in short, people who make a living from music (in both a literal and broad sense). The other reality, as I was saying, is represented by amateurs, whether they are dilettantes, people who started studying music and did not finish their studies, music lovers who could not study for economic reasons, people of all ages on one hand and the other. Among the latter, there may be someone who loves an author, comes to a forum, and opens a debate by quoting something in the hope that someone will make a second post and gradually an in-depth discussion will be created. After all, in a forum, one starts from a question or a conviction and debates... I must say that thanks to all of you, today I can say I know more than I knew a year ago, and I give you credit for that.

Starting from these assumptions, it is not difficult to prove the thesis, namely that many things that may seem trivial to professionals are not at all so for others.

Let's assume the question was also trivial for anyone; I wonder... Is this the way to behave?

Gagaku certainly behaved badly towards Claudio, but why don't we read what Claudio wrote to Gagaku? (I do not want to open a trial against Claudio, who on the contrary I believe accepted my words with a smile and immediately clarified his position, perhaps recognizing an excessively heated response for the type of question posed by Gagaku).

The professionalism factor does not exempt one from the rules of etiquette; on the contrary, contrary to what you wrote, I believe that a professional should have the ethical obligation to maintain a certain decorum during discussions and not descend into an unnecessary arrogance that is not at all an image of their professionalism.

I also disagree for two reasons regarding this sentence:

Here we are talking about music, and I am a professional: therefore, if I read a message from an amateur telling another professional "go further and listen to something," I intervene. This is my way of expressing my esteem for someone else. But"}

It is a vice I have had since I was a child: if someone said something bullshit directed at one of my friends, I would respond and they would call me the little "lawyer". I must stop. Now as then, it is not appreciated, and if I even have to be reprimanded, it's not worth it... the next step is "watch out, I'll Totò you!" and frankly...

The first reason is that Claudio has clearly demonstrated on several occasions that he knows how to defend himself well; that's why I don't think he needs, as you defined yourself, the little "lawyer", but this is already secondary in my view. You too can intervene however you want, but I always refer back to the concept of the professional's "form" (manner).

The reference here was born only because of the manners and, consequently, the tones used, not so much because of the ideas which I do not share, as I believe that everyone can try to open a debate as they see fit, but which I respect nonetheless.

Lastly, it doesn't seem to me that anyone has "Totò-ed" you; it has never happened, but if I always have to stay quiet without saying what can be done and what cannot be done, then there is no point in being here discussing... Therefore, I hope you did not take my messages as "Totòs"; I would be sorry if that were the case, and I assure you that was not the tone.

The last thing regarding guests is that many users have complained about being afraid to express their own opinions for fear of being criticized. Well, on this point, I am absolutely compelled to intervene!

This is the reality of amateurs, so what's the problem? If the questions seem absurd to you, just don't answer them..."

TheSimon wrote:

OT Declared also to my and I HOPE final [...]

The professionalism factor is not exempt from the rules of etiquette and, on the contrary to what you wrote, I believe that a professional should have the ethical obligation to maintain a certain decorum during discussions and not descend into an unnecessary arrogance that is not at all an image of their professionalism.

I completely agree. In this regard, in a friendly manner, I would ask you to point out where the arrogance was in my message (in mine, not in Claudio's, because he will take care of that, if he wants). I responded in a polite and, if you really want, stinging way, to an arrogant message from Gagaku (who, incidentally, had immediately agreed with me). You combined Claudio's response and mine and classified them the same way. They were not equal responses, neither in tone nor in premises. I will be careful not to take Claudio's defense once again: I am taking my own defense, Your Honor...

TheSimon wrote:

Lastly, it doesn't seem to me that anyone has 'tottò' you, it never happened, but if I always have to stay quiet without saying what can be done and what cannot be done, then there is no point in being here discussing...

Not at all, I wasn't referring to you... it was a joke regarding my childish "lawyering"!

TheSimon wrote:

The last thing regarding guests is that many users have complained about being afraid to express their opinions for fear of being criticized. Well, on this point I am absolutely forced to intervene! This is the reality of amateurs, what's the problem? If the questions seem absurd to you, just don't answer...

I agree once again and I invite you to reread the sequence. I have nothing against amateurs, on the contrary! I deal with explaining music to them, here and elsewhere. My intervention concerned a response that left little room for dialogue. Setting aside the tone, Claudio had expressed an opinion regarding a consideration he found "banal" and the response was "but it's true... so?". Well, I replied that if he had already done everything by himself, there was no use in the discussion. But, I repeat, I had already cleared things up with Gagaku, so on that front, the matter is settled. It remains settled between you and me: you have every right and duty to monitor the balance of the forum, of course; but since what is often mistaken for arrogance is instead a simple appropriate response (and I am not just referring to you, let it be clear), I would like that every now and then one tries to understand why someone responds in a certain way.

If, as you say, you have esteem for some of us (just as I have for you, even though I do not know you personally), you must be certain that, even if you do not identify it, there is always a reason in what we say and in the way we say it.

But in fact, I didn't put the two answers on the same level... let me point this out by quoting myself:

TheSimon wrote:

...if you comment like those mentioned above (especially Thallo's)...

I don't know what to tell you, it seems to me that the matter speaks for itself and please avoid these unfortunate little jokes...

Carlos wrote:

I will be very careful not to take Claudio's defense once again: I'll take my own defense, Your Honor...

If we really want to give an adjective to your response, I wouldn't even say that your response was pungent—as I never said it was rude or arrogant (yours)—but perhaps a bit full of prosopopoeia, yes...

I am firmly aware of the fact that every action is always met with a reaction, but I believe that to a certain action of a certain degree, an action of a commensurate degree should correspond. Did Gagaku ask a banal question? Okay, possible responses from Claudio:

- Fine, but in particular what would you like to know? -

or

- What you wrote might be banal, how would you like to argue it? -

Do I need to add others?

Gagaku's reaction (who had taken offense) was commensurate with Thallo's action, which in turn had an disproportionate reaction regarding Gagaku's first post. Now the question is: given that it is established that Claudio went too far (he admitted it himself) and that the various subsequent reactions to his post were generated by his excessive response, what did your support for Claudio have to do with it, especially since he was the first to cause the problem? This is mathematical logic and is comparable to the game of telephone: the first person says a word to the second, the second distorts it and repeats it to the third, the third reports the distorted word to the fourth; the fourth realizes the word is wrong but despite knowing that the third responded that way because it was reported by the second, they still get angry with the third.

(I repeat that the Claudio matter is now cleared up, but I am using these events only to justify the logic of my statements).

If, as you say, you have respect for some of us (as I have for you, even though I don't know you personally), you must be certain that, even if you don't identify it, there is always a reason in what we say and in the way we say it.

Of course, and I continue to have respect for you because I consider you very competent professionals, both you and Claudio and others (but I am not here to list the elements I respect most), and this will not diminish, at least on my part—I don't know about you—for any mere quid pro quo; this does not mean that I cannot say when, in my opinion (and also according to others, given the reports from guests), you are making a mistake; in fact, I do not judge your reasoning as wrong, just as I did not judge it wrong from the beginning (I even called it irreproachable), but, in this case, it is the way these things are said; while remaining firm that, if at the base I receive reports, perhaps it is also worth considering that it's not necessarily true that every time certain attitudes are on the side of justice. If I don't identify it, to use your own term, it might be my problem, but when a certain number of people start failing to identify it, then perhaps it is time to back up and reflect...

And besides, it's New Year's Eve. Whoever discusses nonsense on New Year's Eve discusses nonsense all year round, and I hope to talk about serious things with you and others, especially without friction, in 2013.

Best wishes for a good end and an even better beginning!

TheSimon wrote:

I don't know what to tell you, it seems to me that the matter speaks for itself and please avoid these unhappy little jokes...

Even... Very well, Simone, message received. Take care. Happy 2013 to everyone.

Frank wrote:

How much this work has been loved by musicians and musicologists is recounted by Enzo Rostagno in his preface to one of the few existing books in Italian on Messiaen, a text that absolutely must be known:

HILL, P. (2008a) (ed.) Olivier Messiaen. From Canyons to the Stars, Trans. by F. Cilluffo and D. Torelli, Milan, Il Saggiatore

Coming to Gerardo and Ray1, listen to Messiaen's words regarding serialism as reported by Rostagno:

«I was very vexed by the disproportionate importance attributed to a small work of only three pages entitled Mode de valeur et d’intensité, based on the pretext that this composition would have been at the origin of the application of the serial principle within the scope of attacks, durations, intensities and timbres—in short, of all musical parameters. It may be that this music was prophetic, perhaps even historically important, but musically it is thrice nothing»

Messiaen essentially rejected the concept of formalistic self-referentiality in music.

Do you know what this means for the academic world?

Ergo, no school that has taken it as a starting point ... is left to individuals to equip themselves once the post-structuralist measles has passed.

It's clearer now Frank, thank you

Gerardo wrote:

Ok, but Messiaen won't be the only way... right?

...true...I second the question.

A request to the Admin: could all the OT [off-topic] posts and this message be deleted to make the discussion more readable? Usually, disputes between Users and Moderators are handled privately; even if civil, they make reading the topic... which interests me... a bit difficult.

Besides, I didn't understand the point of view regarding the issue with Carlos and TheSimon... same thing.

I leave the burden to TheSimon, delete this message too. For me, the discussion regarding the tone is closed, in the sense that I will strive to be more conciliatory with users whom I do not know.

@Carlos

Carlos wrote:

Even... Very well, Simone, message received. Take care. Happy 2013 to everyone.

No one here holds anyone with chains. If you have decided to distance yourself, as I seem to have understood from this line of yours, I can only respect your opinion and, in fact, I thank you for removing a great headache from me by demonstrating with this last message the authenticity of the story about professors to whom everything is permitted but towards whom nothing can be moved; a topic that users were frequently reporting to me. I do, however, wish to clarify a few things...

Personally, I consider "turning on one's heels and leaving" to be very laughable behavior; I likewise label the attempt to discredit me publicly by calling me "Your Honor." I believe that being a professional, as you yourself specified a few posts back, does not make you an unassailable and infallible being (it would be wise to always keep one's feet on the ground), and if you make a mistake, I, in here, have the moral and official obligation, towards the forum, to bring it to your attention, because it is my task and duty (dictated by my position as Administrator of this community) and there will be nothing in the world capable of distracting me from performing, here or elsewhere in my life, my duties !! In a society, in order to allow peaceful relations between its members, there is an ethical necessity to establish rules that you yourself accepted at the time of registration. Anyone who violates one or more rules must be reprimanded, especially if I am repeatedly reported by a certain number of people! Many rules I have written can be gathered into a single concept: "When you write, think about what your reaction would be if the message were addressed to you!". I will stop here and go no further... I only want, in this regard, to quote an aphorism from the timeless Mahatma Gandhi: "All evil comes from pride." In these exchanges of views of ours, it does not seem to me that I have ever used offensive or obscene language, nor messages containing any kind of profanity in any way. In any case, if you still have something to say, you can easily find me via my email or my telephone contact details, and in fact, I prefer this second option... I have no problems with anyone, I have never avoided confrontation with anyone, and above all, I do not like to definitively end relationships with anyone (unless they have really messed up big time, that is). Otherwise, what is there to say? It has been a great pleasure knowing you and a sincere thank you for your important cultural contributions to the forum.

I renew and reply with pleasure also to you, without any resentment, my wishes for a happy 2013 full of happiness and full of satisfaction.

@Thallo

Dear Claudio, I am very pleased that you immediately grasped, with great acuity, the spirit of my reminder, which intended to resemble a friendly return to the amicable and fraternal tones of two friends in dialogue, rather than an execution. I know well that some of your mannerisms belong to your way of being; those who know you do not take offense because they learn gradually to interpret your tones which, although they may sometimes seem harsh and perhaps offensive, are actually decisive and pungent without ever crossing into malice or haughtiness. For those who do not know you, some of these outbursts, as in this topic, could however create tension and discourage other users who might want to ask questions that are perhaps "trivial." In this regard, I always think of Prof. Silvia Miozzi, teacher of "Physics - Mechanics" at high school, to whom we would turn asking: "Professor, may I ask a perhaps stupid question?" and she would always gladly answer us: "Certainly! Questions are never stupid." I thank you again, therefore, for demonstrating great diplomacy and for accepting a simple point of view with much humility.

@Ray1

Dear Ray1, I fully share your thought and apologize on behalf of everyone for what happened. Please take into account that usually in all forums things of this nature happen, and ours is no exception. I cannot give you an estimate of how many times these frictions occur per year in other forums; in ours, I can tell you it never happens more than twice a year. I hope, therefore, that being a new user, you have not formed a bad idea of this community which is always monitored message by message, and I hope you will grant us your presence in the times to come, in order to count you among our most present and active users.

Purtroppo non posso cancellare i post delle persone se non espressamente richiestomi a mezzo di contatto privato dall'autore del messaggio da cancellare. Spero che questi ultimi messaggi non distolgano l'attenzione dall'interessante argomento che avete

undertaken.

All my best wishes for a happy 2013 and good music!

TheSimon wrote:

@Carlos

No one here holds anyone with chains. If you have decided to walk away, as I seem to have understood from this line of yours, I can only respect your opinion and, in fact, I thank you for removing a major headache for me by demonstrating with this last message the authenticity of the story about professors to whom everything is permitted but against whom nothing can be moved; a topic that users were reporting to me so much. However, I wish to clarify a few things...

Personally, I consider "turning on one's heels and leaving" to be very laughable behavior, and I label the attempt to discredit me publicly by calling me "Your Honor" in the same way. I believe that being a professional, as you yourself specified a few posts back, does not make you an unassailable and infallible being (it would be wise to always keep one's feet on the ground), and if you make a mistake, I, in here, have the moral and official obligation, towards the forum, to bring it to your attention, because it is my task and duty (dictated by my position as Administrator of this community) and there will be nothing in the world capable of diverting me from performing, here or elsewhere in my life, my duties !! In a society, in order to allow peaceful relations between its members, there is an ethical necessity to establish rules that you yourself accepted at the time of registration. Anyone who violates one or more rules must be reprimanded, especially if I am repeatedly reported by a certain number of people! So many rules that I have written can be gathered into a single concept: "When you write, think about what your reaction would be if the message were addressed to you!". I will stop here and go no further... On this note, I only want to quote an aphorism from the timeless Mahatma Gandhi: "Every evil comes from pride". In these exchanges of views of ours, it does not seem to me that I have ever used offensive or obscene language, or in any way, messages containing any kind of profanity. In any case, if you still have something to say, you can easily find me via my email or my telephone contacts, and in fact, I prefer this second option... I have no problems with anyone, I have never avoided confrontation with anyone, and above all, I do not like to definitively end relationships with anyone (unless they have really messed up big time, that is). Otherwise, what can I say? It has been a great pleasure knowing you, and a sincere thank you for your important cultural contributions to the forum.

Renewing and replying gladly to you as well, without any resentment, are my wishes for a good 2013, rich in happiness and full of satisfaction.

I just wanted to say that I thought the matter was closed...

PS "your honor" referred once again to my previous "little lawyer" and was not intended to discredit anyone. I guarantee it...

Ok, everything seems cleared up ... but let's get back to the topic

PS

@TheSimon

I have been registered since April 2012, I am not exactly a newcomer and I have been following these nice forum users for a good couple of years

Gerardo wrote:

Ok, but Messiaen won't be the only way... right?

Ray1 wrote:

...true...I join in the question.

All respectable composers have always expressed themselves by showing knowledge of those who preceded them; today Messiaen is a composer to be studied, one of the most recent ones, one who has changed the point of view on music, how can one ignore him?

I am only saying that he should be one of the starting points and not an "obstacle" to be avoided

Ok Frank, I understood something else ... he is indeed an author who is visited (too) little...

Very well, in this case I apologize and I am happy to have misinterpreted your post and please disregard my last post. Peace restored

See you soon!

Frank wrote:

All respectable composers have always expressed themselves by showing knowledge of those who preceded them; today Messiaen is a composer to be studied, one of the most recent ones, one who has changed the point of view on music, how can one ignore him?

I am only saying that he should be one of the starting points and not an "obstacle" to be avoided

So you are saying that those who study composition in a conservatory do not delve into the author from a compositional point of view, as one could do with a Bach chorale or something else?

Frank wrote:

I am only saying that it should be one of the starting points and not an "obstacle" to be dodged

Tant'è che (ormai) l'anno scorso è stato il ventennale dalla sua morte...tu hai sentito qualcosa? C'è stata più attenzione per Gould per il trentennale...dico ragazzi, Messiaen...

Va beh...

Tap wrote:

So much so that (by now) last year marked the twentieth anniversary of his death... have you heard anything? There was more attention for Gould for the thirtieth anniversary... I mean guys, Messiaen...

Well...

...if you consider that for the centenary we preferred Wagner over Verdi ... what are you surprised about?

CanCan wrote:

...if you consider that during the centenary we preferred Wagner over Verdi ... what surprises you?

who preferred him?

@TheSimon, note how much I held myself back even in this single response

Tap wrote:

So much so that (by now) last year marked the twentieth anniversary of his death... have you heard anything? There was more attention for Gould for the thirtieth anniversary... I mean guys, Messiaen...

Well...

Even with Nono, who is an Italian among other things, I haven't seen many celebrations ...let alone a Frenchman (even if deserving)

thallo wrote:

@TheSimon, note how much I held myself back even in this single response

Eeee birbaccione !!