The immense (hidden) legacy of the Italian twentieth century

Frank wrote:

... I have only read the last two posts. I don't have time to read everything right now, but just to write some nonsense, I am thinking of reminding everyone to behave (if possible).

Frank, I respect your role, but I do not understand for what reason countermeasures must be taken.

No one has permitted themselves to use insulting terms.

I despise Stravinsky. Can I write it?

(I have already written it) :-)

Viola wrote:

The comparison is absurd and furthermore no one has expressed themselves in these terms.

But naturally...

Our Italian Language... the most beautiful and most mistreated language in the world.

After now almost a couple of centuries of "breaking in", we are still unable to understand each other without making enormous errors of contextual interpretation and mutual understanding.

Viola wrote:

Frank, I respect your role, but I don't understand for what reason countermeasures must be taken.

Dear Viola, I think (as my grandfather used to say) that Frank knows his chickens (some even for about ten years). In these cases, this topic always comes to mind

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/3986-vita-di-un-moderatore-di-commenti

that he had shared.

When I happen to not understand, I send him a private message ... and it works. You know that anyway, one does not publicly discuss a moderation intervention... even if "lite".

I think this forum is okay, because the moderation is okay. I'm telling you this as someone who has visited many [forums], and some places, seemingly well-managed, were administered by scoundrels... from a human point of view.

If he intervened, there must be a reason

Celibidache wrote:

Our Italian Language... the most beautiful and most mistreated language in the world.

... one should try with French ...the "diplomatic" language.

Absolutely not English ... eh...!

AbateFaria wrote:

Dear Viola, I think (as my grandfather used to say) that Frank knows his chickens (some even for about ten years). In these cases, this topic always comes to mind

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/3986-vita-di-un-moderatore-di-commenti

that he had shared.

When I happen to not understand, I send him a private message ... and it works. You know that anyway, publicly one does not discuss a moderation intervention... even if it is "lite".

___________

Dear Abate,

I didn't know.

But who fought with whom? I must have missed some posts.

______

I think this forum is ok, because the moderation is ok. I tell you this as someone who has visited many, and some places, apparently well-managed, were administered by riffraff... from a human point of view.

______

Of course.

My previous experience can confirm it.

_________

If he intervened, there must be a reason

Viola wrote:

No one has dared to use insulting terms.

Stravinsky contempt. Can I write it?

(I have already written it) :-)

You also wrote

"In the pages of a serious and prepared contemporary scholar like our Massimo Mila, in certain cases, allusions to the figure of Bruckner are found in the most ungenerous terms, as a 'modest self-taught organist'. In a hundred years, one could bet, Bruckner will still be performed, while who knows if Mila will still be read ..." and probably envisioning a future in which Mila will not be read is not insulting, but it is stupid. Can I write it? I have already written it. For your epic revenge, the world will be deprived of the works of a highly appreciated author, who had a different opinion from yours regarding Bruckner. He also had a different opinion on Respighi, different from yours and from that of Silvio Paolini Merlo, from whom your intervention took inspiration (this is what SPM writes "Mila therefore insists mainly on the Roman trilogy (...), while he barely dwells on the Doric Quartet, almost totally eludes concertos and operas, but above all does not speak of the Metamorphoseon", this is what you write "Mila, speaking of Ottorino Respighi, insists mainly on the Roman Trilogy (in my modest opinion the most 'commercial and less significant'), briefly mentions the Doric Quartet, and neglects concertos and operas, but above all does not speak of the Metamorphoseon, which represents the last and highest symphonic page of the composer, conceived in the fullness of his maturity", without citing sources...).

"the Hanslicks always end up disappearing, lost in the meanders of their own academia.", even this is not profanity and above all you did not write it, Duse wrote it, a person known for being acquiescent (...), and even this from my point of view is a stupid opinion. It is not even an opinion, it is a bleak vengeful hope: what would be wrong if Hanslick survived? If people read Hanslick, perhaps to refute him, perhaps to agree, perhaps just to be able to say "I have read Hanslick"? And no, Hanslick's judgment must be avenged with his damnatio memoriae; we are those who loathe books if they say things we do not appreciate (I would never want Duse to disappear forever lost in the meanders of his own academia, he who was an academic).

But let's stop talking about Viola who did not use profanity, let's talk about Celibidache (the user) who said that

1) music critics deal only with that because they often only have that;

2) they do not have a mature and articulated perception of being (which is, as is well known, a very bad disease);

3) they are constipated, since nothing enters them and nothing leaves them;

4) they suffer from pathological egocentrism, a cosmic egocentrism that forbids humanity from having other Einsteins. That is, I repeat, other Einsteins are not born because of music critics, a discourse so patently clear and shareable that it is almost useless to repeat it;

In all this, I cannot stand Brahms and I love Bruckner and Wagner; I would have harshly criticized Hanslick's judgment but by giving that judgment the dignity of a judgment of taste. Hanslick was not Brahms's "playmate"; Hanslick is a fundamental character in the history of aesthetic thought, whether his judgments as a critic are liked or not. And since we are not in the salon of an old spinster, it would be nice to speak of Hanslick as a scholar, not as the village idiot. A triumph of envy! My goodness, I would really like to read a book with this title:

"A triumph of envy. The history of music criticism banalized into clichés."

P.S.

50 euros to whoever proves to me that Italian is the most beautiful language in the world. I want absolute proof, relative to all languages currently spoken and written, including, therefore, dead languages for which documents are obtainable, with a methodological premise and a glossary in which, for example, the use of the adjective "beautiful" is clarified."},

hahahah, great Thallo, what a desire you have to respond, I thank you even if you are rekindling fires that perhaps by extinguishing themselves would be of more benefit

Look Claudio, I'm giving you the like because you summarized everything perfectly.

But on my part, I continue to wonder: why is it that after more than a century now, we haven't been able to overcome this rivalry: Brahms on one side, Wagner and Bruckner on the other. In reality, it is all wonderful music, so???....

... and how does all this have to do with the generation of composers from the 1880s (the nineteenth century) and the subsequent generations that made the Italian twentieth century great? And I am asking this question to Viola, since she is the one who proposed this topic.

> But who fought with whom? I must have missed some posts.

eh eh Viola, when a warning arrives... the omelet isn't made yet (otherwise what would moderation be for?). If there is an omelet, there is probably also a ban. For example, Celibidache has already been able to try, but evidently, despite recent "repentances," he hasn't quite grasped the issue yet.

Yes, for some, French is definitely needed.

That Brahms was not the most tolerant and welcoming person in this world is a little but certain fact – just as it is equally certain that those who love his music will not stop loving it because of this. Unless we identify the music with the personality of the composer. But we don't do that. Or perhaps we do?

thallo wrote:

You also wrote

"In the pages of a serious and prepared contemporary scholar like our Massimo Mila, in certain cases, one finds allusions to Bruckner's figure in the most ungenerous terms, as a "modest self-taught organist". In a hundred years, one could bet, Bruckner will still be performed, while who knows if Mila will still be read ... " and probably envisioning a future in which Mila will not be read is not insulting, but it is stupid. Can I write this? I have already written it. For your epic revenge, the world will be deprived of the works of a highly appreciated author, who had a different opinion from yours regarding Bruckner. He also had a different opinion on Respighi, different from yours and from that of Silvio Paolini Merlo, from whom your intervention took inspiration (this is what SPM writes "Mila therefore insists mainly on the Roman trilogy (...)[/size],[/size] while he barely dwells on the[/size]Doric Quartet, he almost totally eludes the concertos and operas, but above all he does not speak of the [/size]Metamorphoseon", this is what you write "Mila, speaking of Ottorino Respighi, insists mainly on the Roman Trilogy (in my modest opinion the most "commercial and less significant"), briefly alludes to the Doric Quartet, and neglects the concertos and operas, but above all does not speak of the Metamorphoseon, which represents the last and highest symphonic page of the composer, conceived in the fullness of his maturity", without citing sources...).

"the Hanslicks always end up disappearing, lost in the meanders of their own academia.", even this is not profanity and above all you did not write it, Duse wrote it, a person known for being acquiescent (...), and even this from my point of view is a stupid opinion. It is not even an opinion, it is a bleak vengeful hope: what would be wrong if Hanslick survived? If people read Hanslick, perhaps to refute him, perhaps to agree, perhaps just to be able to say "I have read Hanslick"? And no, Hanslick's judgment must be avenged with his damnatio memoriae; we are those who loathe books if they say things we do not appreciate (I would never want Duse to disappear forever lost in the meanders of his own academia, he who was an academic).

But let's stop talking about Viola who did not use profanity, let's talk about Celibidache (the user) who said that

1) music critics deal only with that because they often only have that;

2) they do not have a mature and articulated perception of being (which is, as is well known, a very bad disease);

3) they are constipated, since nothing enters them and nothing leaves them;

4) they suffer from pathological egocentrism, a cosmic egocentrism that forbids humanity from having other Einsteins. That is, I repeat, other Einsteins are not born because of music critics, a discourse so patently clear and shareable that it is almost useless to repeat it;

In all this, I cannot stand Brahms and I love Bruckner and Wagner; I would have harshly criticized Hanslick's judgment but by giving that judgment the dignity of a judgment of taste. Hanslick was not Brahms's "playmate", Hanslick is a fundamental character in the history of aesthetic thought, whether his judgments as a critic are liked or not. And since we are not in the salon of an old spinster, it would be nice to speak of Hanslick as a scholar, not as the village idiot. A triumph of envy! My goodness, I would really like to read a book with this title:

"A triumph of envy. The history of music criticism banalized into clichés".

P.S.

50 euros to whoever proves to me that Italian is the most beautiful language in the world. I want absolute proof, relative to all languages currently spoken and written, including, therefore, dead languages for which documents are acquirable, with a methodological premise and a glossary in which, for example, the use of the adjective "bello" (beautiful) is clarified.

I prefer to spend time listening to Bruckner rather than reading Hanslick.

I love Brahms.

Not being a musicologist, nor an expert in the matter, I avail myself of the judgment expressed by those whom I consider my references.

I have chosen them as such, not only for their seriousness (as you rightly claim there are many serious and prepared scholars in the field), but also for a certain affinity of feelings.

Is music thought or feeling?

If it is both, to what extent?

Why do we generally appreciate the music of composers more when we feel an affective affinity towards them?

It happens to me too. I detest Stravinsky because I cannot feel any positive feeling towards him.

I refuse to listen to the music of a person whom I consider humanly miserable.

Have a good day.

micamahler wrote:

hahahah, great Thallo, what a desire you have to respond, I thank you even if you are rekindling fires that perhaps by being extinguished would be of more benefit

Every time you intervene with a sarcastic little remark, useless and unpleasant like your name.

Viola wrote:

Is music thought or feeling?

If it is both, to what extent?

Not 'Music' - which is a generic concept - but 'a' musical work I think is a mixture of thought and feeling.

Sometimes more thought, sometimes more feeling.

It seems to me - as an extreme case - that it could be the result of thought alone; however, it does not seem possible to me that it could be the result of feeling alone: to compose music one must know how to compose; at least at rudimentary levels.

also to you... have a good day . . . . . .

micamahler wrote:

hahahah, great Thallo, what a desire you have to respond, I thank you even if you are rekindling fires that perhaps by being extinguished would be of more benefit

That little laugh like a laughing hyena is extremely irritating.

What is there to laugh about and above all what does that little laugh mean?

Viola wrote:

I love Brahms.

...

I refuse to listen to the music of a person whom I consider humanly a wretch.

But Brahms was a wretch ... or .. oh

LucaCavaliere wrote:

To compose music, one must know how to compose; at least at rudimentary levels.

At rudimentary levels?

And consider that we are talking about composers who are the best experts in the field, and therefore also excellent technicians. That the result doesn't just show technique is another matter.

I think that music is just music.

But I continue to wonder what all this has to do with 20th-century Italian composers and I would like someone to do what was done with the Burkina in other places. I already see at least two extra topics: Brahms vs Wagner Bruckner and are our favorite composers favorites because of their music or also because of their character and their lives?

Then if we want to make one about what music is... fine. But here we are talking about Italian composers, please.

Gianni22 wrote:

But Brahms was a miserable ... or .. oh

Dear Mr. Gianni, before (re-re)correcting me, I kindly ask you to at least superficially read my content.

Where would I have written that Brahms is a miserable person?

BRUNO MADERNA

Requiem (1946)

Open content (youtube)

Viola wrote:

Dear Mr. Gianni, before (re-re) correcting me, I kindly ask you to take a moment to read my content, at least superficially.

Where would I have written that Brahms is miserable?