L. V. Beethoven

The "Kreutzer" Sonata

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zadra

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Opening post by zadra

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I find this sonata fascinating, but I have only known it for a short time. I have listened to several versions online, but it is still missing from my CD collection. Not being able to have the version of my dreams (which would be Milstein/Backhaus, if these two musicians had ever played together), in your opinion, which is the best violinist/pianist duo, also taking into account the sound quality? In short, if you had to recommend a particular recording to me, which one would it be?

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Reply 2 by stradivari

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Even if it is not easy to find, the Casadeus/Francescatti recording is recommended (there is something on YouTube), superior to this one (In my opinion) is that of Clara Haskil with Arthur Grumiaux.

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Reply 3 by Videoclip

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I don't know those suggested by Stradivari, but I find the duo Pavel Berman/Vardan Mamikonian successful; formally impeccable, very expressive. Moreover, the two travel well together; you can notice it, for example, in moments where timbre makes the difference and the violin (see the vibratos) is enhanced by the precise touch (also dry but fitting) of the pianist.

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Reply 4 by zadra

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Thanks for the suggestions, I will try to look for them. If in the meantime anyone wants to digress on the why, how, and pros and cons of this sonata, they are welcome. I am interested in knowing your opinions regarding it

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Reply 5 by Xenakis

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zadra wrote:

defects of this sonata

Beethoven? Defects?

I would like to mention the amusing story of the “Bridgetower Sonata,” because this was one of the baptisms of this piece... then, complicit with alcohol, a woman and Beethoven's spite, it became the “Kreutzer Sonata”

The beautiful thing was that Kreutzer never performed the piece... according to him, it was too difficult

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Reply 7 by zadra

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Xenakis wrote:

Beethoven? Flaws?

Ahaha... I also think that Beethoven has no flaws, but there is always someone who finds them even in the untouchable masters (on an American forum I read unspeakable things about Vivaldi's alleged mediocrity, for example).

I knew that the sonata had been written for Bridgetower, but it wasn't clear to me why Kreutzer had never performed it.

@Dino... Thanks, I read the article just yesterday but I am also interested in hearing the opinions of the forum members. ^^

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Reply 8 by Natan

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zadra wrote:

i am also interested in having the opinions of the forum members. ^^

Opinions of what nature? Of taste or technical?...and if they were technical, about what in particular? Do you have any specific curiosities?

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Reply 9 by zadra

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More a matter of taste, rather; technical opinions require studies different from mine to be well understood (I am still an amateur).

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Reply 10 by Natan

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What can I say Zadra, the fact that one technically understands what Beethoven put into it leads one to adore his music... shouldn't we not blame Xenakis when he says "defects"?

I think that for an insider it is difficult not to give unto Caesar what is Caesar's... and consequently respond "I like it". But I don't know how much a matter of taste is worth, in the end if one didn't like Beethoven (I mean in general too)... it wouldn't really be his problem

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Reply 11 by Natan

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I will add that I admit, however, that regarding my pieces (obviously not being Beethoven), I also appreciate an opinion on taste

...this thing is strange, don't you think?

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Reply 12 by zadra

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Right. Anyway, one can always give an opinion on the various performances, right? To know why you prefer one or the other.

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Reply 13 by Videoclip

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zadra wrote:

If in the meantime anyone wanted to digress on the why, how, and the pros and cons of this sonata

Saved Beethoven

zadra wrote:

Right. Anyway, one can always give an opinion on the various performances, right? Knowing why you prefer one or the other.

I have given [opinions], in reality there are so many, perhaps too many. The point is to form one's own idea regardless of the (more or less) great performers... who should be listened to but then "forgotten", otherwise one goes mad and risks making a bad copy of whoever they may be.

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Reply 15 by OrlandiArmando

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Hello everyone! Have you seen that our Beethoven section has taken off and has already surpassed several other sections? Well, well....

Dear Xenakis, you speak of Bridgetower and Kreutzer; before taking news as true, as always let's look at the facts: Ferdinand Ries writes it in Notizien, page 82 (a note spotted in Thayer-Riemann, II, page 396) recounts having copied on the very morning of the concert, at a very early hour, the violin part of the first movement from the manuscript score (where the piano part was then only "noted here and there"); as far as the Andante is concerned, Bridgetower was forced to read it from the same score, as there had been no material time to copy it. We cannot believe too much what Bridgetower later reported in a specific note in the copy of the Sonata owned by him, that Beethoven would have welcomed with a warm explosion of joy the arpeggiated cadenza he improvised on the eighth bar of the first Presto, similar to that of the piano at bar 18. We do not know if the bizarre violinist also allowed himself other whims, more or less tasteful. But it is well worth believing that Beethoven then reviewed the Sonata before sending it to print and eventually introduced into it the amendments and modifications that, upon a more considered critical examination, appeared necessary after that first hurried performance, in which there was no time — and perhaps not even the precise will — to fix the music on paper in every detail. According to news that also dates back to Bridgetower, Beethoven had initially thought of dedicating the Sonata to him; but then, following a quarrel that arose between them "because of a girl," the matter went up in smoke and the dedication was transferred to Rudolph Kreutzer. Bridgetower was a born and bred windbag; this is the only source we have regarding this matter, and it comes from the only interested party: so I am not saying it is false: it is not reliable. A beautiful note, however, is found in a letter by Czerny: "Bridgetower was a mulatto and played in an extravagant way. During the performance of the sonata, people laughed at him" but I [mean] the sources: Thayer-Riemann II, page 395. Bridge must have played it at least 4 times, in mid-May 1803. However, since I see in the Kessler and Wielhorsky notebooks (October 1802) that Beethoven had already sketched everything out without knowing Mr. Bridgetower nor having re-met Mr. Kreutzer (B. had already met him in 1798 at the time of Bernadotte's approach). Second element: the only element we have regarding Kreutzer's judgment is Berlioz, who many years later, reporting Kreutzer's judgment that the Sonata was "outrageusement inintelligible," added that this reflected the opinion of ninety-nine percent of the musicians of Paris at the time (i.e., approximately around 1830). In reality, Berlioz, as a good Beethovenian, refutes the common opinion of his French colleagues. Phenomenal: Kreutzer dies in 1831 in Geneva, Berlioz publishes the article in 1832.... What do you say? Kreutzer in the dovecote, he cannot retort and Berlioz defends his idol. Still anecdotal, nineteenth-century and stale, which must be refuted word for word. But we will make it, guys, we will make it!!!

PS: Kreutzer played it, the sonata: Chantavoine, Beethoven, page 123 and Héctor Berlioz, preface to Voyage musical en Allemagne et en Italie, études sur Beethoven, Gluck et Weber, mélanges et nouvelles, Paris 1844)

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Reply 17 by Xenakis

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... what can I say

OrlandiArmando wrote:

Dear Xenakis, you are talking about Bridgetower and Kreutzer; before taking news as true, as always let's look at the facts

... if I hadn't written anything, what would we have talked about this evening?

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Reply 18 by OrlandiArmando

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No, no, heaven forbid, I didn't mean to seem rude! I have always done my best not to disturb anyone in my life! If that was the case, please forgive me; you reported your news correctly, it is they that are partially apocryphal. In fact, they are anecdotes that even I haven't looked at for a long time! Right now I am looking at exactly the sketches of the sonata on Wiehlorsky... I admit that in so many years I have never analyzed them deeply. It is good preparation for something new on my site. Questions, even those that may seem trivial to you, are the lifeblood of this section; I don't want to intervene too much or inhibit you! Please, guys. Here we are all on the same level! A hug to everyone.

 

 

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Reply 19 by Xenakis

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Don't worry Armando, and who would be offended?

...it might seem like a coincidence but I had started by saying: "I would like to quote the funny story (if you'll let me call it... an anecdote?)"... the beginner's luck

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Reply 20 by zadra

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OrlandiArmando wrote:

Berlioz ... reporting Kreutzer's judgment that the Sonata was « outrageusement inintelligible » added that this reflected the opinion of ninety-nine percent of the musicians of Paris at the time (that is, approximately, around 1830).

Is it known what they thought in the rest of Europe? When did the musicians' opinion begin to change regarding this? Was there anyone in particular who helped to re-evaluate this specific sonata?

...Too many questions?

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