Classical Music

The Link Between Music And Mathematics...

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Giusantsot

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Opening post by Giusantsot

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Hello everyone! I am opening this new discussion because today, while talking with my mathematics professor about my activities outside the classroom, music came up... She maintains that mathematics is very much related to music and claims that whoever is a musician is also a bit of a mathematician, and whoever is a mathematician is also a bit of a musician... At first, I agreed with my teacher, but then I was left in doubt... Does the link between music and mathematics exist or not? And if it does, how does it manifest itself? In this discussion, I invite all the more experienced users to answer me... Thank you for your attention and please, do answer!!!!!!!!!!

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Reply 2 by sisifo1987

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I am certainly not the most experienced user, but I can give you some general indications.

I studied music when I was a bit younger; they told me about this relationship, but I understood it relatively little.

In the times of the Greeks, there was a certain Pythagoras, who maintained that everything was associated with number.

The division of the monochord was made in such a way that the intervals had symmetry (according to the ancient definition).

With the acquisition of new knowledge, physics (acoustics) divided the monochord using such laws and not just simple "arithmetic".

These are topics that I have only recently started studying from physics texts, so I apologize for any inaccuracies.

ciao

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Reply 3 by pianoexpert

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In my opinion, and not just mine, definitely yes. The Musician does not learn to do arithmetic or use derivatives, but enters into perfect synchrony with rhythmic "division". The Platonic definition of rhythm as the "order of movement" implies a great mathematical organization in real time within the Musician's mind. Think about how much mathematics there is in the division of irregular groups!!!! Three against two, three against four, five against two, etc... All the mathematical aspect of music must be well understood during the "training" period. A serious study of Solfeggio means mastering "musical figures" and, within the scope of the precision acquired in performing them, being able to be slightly flexible in tempo, almost pleasingly soft, and denying a bit of that "sharpness" that results precisely thanks to "mathematical division". Thus Music is the sweet application of Mathematics, which nonetheless inevitably serves as a guide to musical discourse. Let's say that in Music, Mathematics is inserted together with temporality; that is, the phenomena of proportion and division are actually realized within a span of "time" that inexorably flows fluidly. A somewhat "mechanical" view of this can be obtained by thinking of Music as a fluid and incandescent mass that, in cylindrical form, like a tube, flows before us. We have a pair of pliers in our hand and we squeeze that flowing mass with more or less energy, leaving more or less deep indentations. After cooling, we could observe the "Ordered Design" that we call rhythm; we could find equal and repetitive distances in ordered groups. Mathematics and geometry together!!!!! Don't you think?

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Reply 4 by GnazzJazz

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What a vision that of the flowing mass! It makes me think of a jazz piece, let's say avant-garde, in which the pinching function would be performed by a saxophone emerging in bursts from the moving sound mass, but what is interesting is that my young son found a rhythm in it, a pulsation, oscillating regularly and spontaneously.

I would like to say that, regarding rhythmic divisions and children, perhaps it should be considered that at a (very) tender age, one lacks exactly that mathematical background useful for rationally understanding the rhythmic issues of a piece, and therefore teaching methods should take this into account, finding other levers and points of view.

Regarding the general link between mathematics and music, it is certain that to govern a phenomenon we are tempted to do so, in large part, in a rational way just as one does with physics, especially in its reductionist approach, and physics uses mathematics heavily as a tool for calculation and investigation, in a sense as an engine. Therefore, it is quite natural and fascinating to frame the musical phenomenon within a mathematical context.

So there are two things I like to note. Often beauty derives precisely from deviating a little from the simplest mathematical patterns; see, for example, the non-linearity of the ear, the inharmonicity of strings, irrationality, perhaps in small doses, in compositions. But it is also true that these simple patterns were not invented by chance and probably lie at the base of nature, even if they do not exhaust it, so Pythagoras certainly had good reason, as do we moderns who see the harmonic oscillator everywhere...

regards and excuse the digressions

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Reply 5 by pianoexpert

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great intervention. Regarding children, Musical Pedagogy maintains that until age 5-6 they do not have the conception of regularity and therefore cannot develop a sense of rhythm. It is, as you argued, very important to develop the rhythmic aspect from that age onwards. Our body is made of rhythms, that is, of ordered movements that repeat periodically. Wakefulness and sleep, systole and diastole, hunger and satiety... in short, there are within us a sort of rhythms called "circadian".... no fear, they are called so because they are completed in "about" 24 hours (cf. FREISSE. Psychology of rhythm). If we change time zones... everything gets messed up... but after a few days everything is fine, that is, we return to our circadian rhythms!!!!!

...Excuse me too for the digressions

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Reply 6 by sisifo1987

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I like the comments and I am fascinated by how the human mind manages to find patterns to describe things that exist.

Their existence is, regardless of mathematics or physics (tools that serve our little heads to comprehend, understand, and study).

Mathematics, physics, knowledge in general, rationality in tackling problems helps in the study of music, in the assimilation of concepts, but at a certain point I believe that one must forget everything to start making music.

I believe that for a pianist to give their best, they must also become music. Do not think about the subdivisions that the person playing in time has, do not think about gestures, or the interpretation of the piece (these are problems already addressed); they must try to detach their little head and simply become music.

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Reply 7 by Giusantsot

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Well, thank you for all your contributions, now I certainly have a clearer understanding of the link between Mathematics (and science) and Music... I just wanted to add that my Mathematics professor maintains that a piece by Bach (I don't remember which one) can even be translated into an expression composed of polynomials that is very difficult to solve...

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Reply 9 by torrese

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Someone said............music is first and foremost art as well as science........

regards

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Reply 10 by Giusantsot

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I agree with you Saverio, but in this discussion I wanted to try to understand this fascinating link between mathematics and music...

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Reply 11 by DanelePiano

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In music there is mathematics, physics, geometry, history, psychology, Italian, Latin..... well, these are the ones that come to mind now 😃

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Reply 14 by Giusantsot

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well, beautiful piece (I'm referring to lo zappatore!)... yes, in effect it rises in key until it becomes impossible and then piano again...

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Reply 15 by Francesco

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Wow, what a discussion! Well, you have all said everything... Yes, I also believe there is a link between music and mathematics, yet music is that something that "transcends" mathematics, which can only go so far. For example: in real life, if we have a one-liter bottle, we won't be able to fit more inside. In music, however, if we have a measure in four-four time (thus eight sixteenth notes), with irregular groupings we can make more "fit" than normal... Think of triplets...

in any case yes, music-mathematics exists. 🙂

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Reply 17 by Frank

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When I read the topic title, I immediately thought of 2 composers: Bach and Xenakis (obviously the first two that came to mind) who represent 2 very different ways of conceiving a musical work by exploiting mathematical "geometries".

Which I think is a slightly different theme from those treated so far, just throwing it out there 😉

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Reply 20 by Frank

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Some listens

Iannis Xenakis - Metastasis (Spectral View)

Xenakis - Rebonds

Xenakis Mélanges

He also collaborated with E. Varèse and Le Corbusier on Poème électronique (1956) and in any case Xenakis has published various essays, including Stochastic Music (1961) and Music. Architecture (1971).

Other useful texts

XENAKIS edited by Enzo Restagno - EDT

"Universi del suono" (Sound Universes) by Xenakis

A couple of Links

http://www.tedde.net/tedde/giorgio/text/MusicaArchitettura.pdf

http://www.emis.de/journals/NNJ/Capanna-it.html

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