The market is the world's problem

ahahahahahahahhahahahahaahaha mamma rai...... nonna magari......

mercato+ musica?!?!?!?!?!? cosa ne è uscito?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?! io non so niente U.U XD

mercato+film glisso perchè una roba pietosa.... come pure mercato più letteratura ah ti sei scordato Moccia...... o Mocciolo come lo chiamo io

per l'ultimo punto..... dato non dico mai parolaccie mi astengo hahahahahahah

Rotore wrote:

The "market" has ruined everything! Let's think about it carefully:

market+tv?=we are talking about Mediaset... or RAI "mamma"?

market+food?=McDonald's

market+music?=no comment

market+films?=cinepanettoni (forgive the term)

market+literature?=Fabio Volo

market+man?=slave to society

market+real estate+banks?=swear words are welcome at your discretion

....I feel like going back to bartering, one goat and two chickens in exchange for firewood for the winter...

The fault does not lie with the market. The fault lies with the lack of culture! Those who hold power try to keep the masses in such a state that they are dominable and influenceable. And the masses drink the goose broth!

and whose fault is it..... the masses or those who hold power?

Until the masses could access culture, the responsibility - not the fault - for everything lay with those who held power. but it was understandable.

Today, since everyone, at least here in the West, can educate themselves, the responsibility belongs to everyone! and.. it is no longer understandable, and everyone must take their own responsibilities! It's time to stop passing the buck, the excuses ended a long time ago!

Responsibility belongs to everyone

Those who are unaware cannot be at fault

Lupino wrote:

<Responsibility belongs to everyone

Those who are unaware cannot be at fault

This is part of the alibis!

But, I repeat: the alibis are over!

It really seems that it is more comfortable to remain unaware, growing up is exhausting.

Today with the internet anyone can know and learn everything they want but for the most part this is not as interesting as photos on social media or reality shows on TV.

In the end, it is the masses who buy and consume what they prefer, aided by the market whose task is to satisfy the demand.

have we turned into the Five Star forum? :-)

To the proposal "let's think about it carefully" I say: ok, I have thought about it carefully, and I believe that the phrase "the market is the problem with the world" is senseless.

Thallo's phrase is interesting... However, I would like him to comment on it. In what sense do you think that phrase is meaningless? What drove you to this conclusion?

My idea is that Italians are a people of sheepdogs [fools] regardless; this is little but certain, and the market only follows the needs of the population. Prices depend on the market because they are proportional to people's needs. A product costs too much? No one buys it -> the price drops. Conversely: many are interested in buying a product -> the price rises until it reaches a stability that maximizes sales and revenue (this falls under what is called Operations Research in economics). Rather than discussing the market, therefore, and blaming it, it would be appropriate to talk about false necessities, media manipulation, and a sense of cultural responsibility. These are the real problems! The market only becomes a corollary to these issues.

Market + TV = Mediaset and RAI

Ok, evidently Mediaset and RAI programs draw more attention than anything else. The question could be: why do they draw more?

Because behind television there are incredible tricks that exploit the psychological control of people. I want to share an experience with you... In a recording studio, sound design and narration for a commercial for a famous car brand had to be produced. On the sheet intended for the speaker, in addition to reporting the intonations with which the speaker had to pronounce the text, there was also a kind of psychological explanation of the emotions the listener was supposed to feel. I remember well the exact words after the third time the speaker had to mention the brand and the name of the car... In parentheses it was written: "only this time will the listener realize they have listened to the name of the car three times".

Television is made to pilot us, proposing trash programs aimed solely at commanding our minds. The proof is that every time, as I have also said in other posts, when discussing any topic with someone, the answer is often the same... It's true what you're telling me, they said it the other day on television. The medicine for this mind-piloting is very simple: do as I did, turn off the television and start finding information where you want. Everyone must be free to choose where to get informed.

Market + food = McDonald's

McDonald's is another example of what media power can do. I mean, seen from another perspective... Wouldn't it be better to eat a homemade hamburger, with ground meat of known origin, tomatoes and lettuce from the garden, rather than traveling kilometers to go to McDonald's? Without taking anything away from those who are avid consumers of McDonald's products, here I always tell my experience, but every time I have eaten at Mc. (almost forced because I was with other friends), I had stomach problems for two days. On YouTube, it is not difficult to find the documentary "Supersize Me". I invite you to watch it... I don't want to engage in counter-advertising, but on a forum, as in real life, there is the freedom to express one's opinions and it is up to each of us to choose what to believe (either the precious commercial that McDonald's distributes all over the world via television or the documentary filmed by a guy who for 100 days decided to have all his meals, including breakfast and snacks, at McDonald's).

Market + Music = (here I find the result) mediocrity.

90% of what is fed to us on radio or television is mediocre. I don't want to open a discussion on classical music, which would require a separate chapter, but I listen to everything and realize that 'artists' proclaim themselves as such only for show. I find nothing brilliant in what I listen to, just chord progressions and infantile melodies laid on top. Even here, to have a comparison, one only needs to open YouTube and search for the San Remo festivals from 20 years ago versus those of today. The collapse seems obvious to me.

Market + Film = Cinepanettone

In this case too, in Italy no one has anything left to say anymore, and given the media wreckage that has generated increasingly shallow minds, it has been understood that box office revenue is made much more by 'cinepanettoni' [holiday comedies] which show everything: butts and private parts of women and men and nothing else. I mean.... They have been making cinepanettoni for 15 years, they are always the same, stories of infidelity, shady dealings, idiot jokes; the only thing that changes is the location where the film is shot because, quite rightly, we won't let them have their holidays in the most beautiful places in the world between one shot and another? Also because if we want, the only ones working on cinepanettoni are editors and special effects experts. Don't come telling me that...

that to film a movie of this kind, one must work 24/7!!!

RRegarding the other things, I don't even want to comment, especially on the banks, the true ruin of this country... Banks at the service of politicians or politicians as waiters for the bankers?

In any case, I find that the single keyword truly responsible for this mess is only one... The media which, through television, shapes minds in favor of the caste; minds that become easy to convince and gullible on any subject. I believe that culture is an essential element within a country. Once Italy had a primacy in the world, even now but at the bottom of the list...

But do we want to reclaim certain positive primacies or not??? Let's start by turning off the television...

thallo wrote:

have we turned into the Five Star forum? :-)

...let's just say I don't follow politics and what I wrote is just my own reflection. Behind market there could be the word money...anyway, I won't be the only one in the world to think so; you, who are informed about the facts, confirm to me that there even exists a party that supports the same thing...I don't know and I'm not even interested

If the word demagoguery exists... there must be a reason

Simone, I do not share the terms of some of your reflections, which are nonetheless more than legitimate, so I prefer to respond to you on the first part of the issue.

Why is the phrase "the market is the problem of the world" meaningless, in my opinion? First of all, from a purely semantic point of view, words like "problem" and "world" are too vague in all their meanings, and the word "market," today, also has so many meanings that it requires specific series. Making a parallel, it is as if someone had written "the half-seasons no longer exist" or "all politicians steal." In an even more subtle way, it would be like saying something like "shoes make men weaker," and talking about hobbits, who notoriously walk barefoot, to demonstrate that there is a possibility of living without shoes...

Currently, the market is a reality so intrinsic to ANTHROPIC culture as to be comparable, I don't know, to cities, apartment buildings, streets. I could also talk about the damage that roads have done to the world, but it would be useless to postulate the possibility of a world without roads. So, you are complaining about something that affects you very little (because in my opinion the existence of McDonald's or pop music affects you very little) and you are making a cataclysm out of it only because you want to "reify" a cause of all evils, just as Christians do with the devil (hence the phrase "the market is THE PROBLEM of the world").

Many things have been written and are being written about the market for a long time. I am not an expert, but as an artist, I always refer back to the theory of Jean Baudrillard, who sees objects as means to express our personalities. The market is society, and in the market, through the satisfaction of certain desires (which are not needs), our tastes, our sense of beauty, our choices, our freedoms, and constraints are expressed. For some, this is the essence of structuralism—the idea, namely, that in the market, not only our needs and our money are ensnared, but also our way of being. I believe, instead, that these systems follow "natural" human logics, made up of masses, niches, transversality, consensus, and dissent. Buying organic, today, is a choice WITHIN the market, not OUTSIDE of it, and it is thanks to market methods that companies producing organic goods manage to find customers and survive.

That said, a discussion about the market only makes sense if done in a very specific way. Let's talk about THIS market, let's describe it well, and then, perhaps, let's talk about what credible alternatives might be. But I remain optimistic; I do not like demagogic discourse, I continue to remain convinced of certain principles regarding the music market (such as that without the global village there would have been no baroque renaissance, that the market is at the base of the dissemination of knowledge, and that over the centuries good musicians have increased rather than decreased) and I fear discourses that are too large and generalizing.

p.s.

i also held myself back... because, no offense to anyone, but something like "market + man = slave of society" is fine to write at 12 years old in a diary...

thallo wrote:

p.s.

"market+man= slave of society" is fine to write at 12 years old in a diary...

Fine... but if, as Rotore precisely states, behind the market there is money and man is in the middle... the risk of slavery doesn't seem so far off to me. Why would it be fine to write it at 12... and not after? I imagine that Rotore made an extreme synthesis... schematic, right?

thallo wrote:

Simone, I do not share the terms of some of your reflections, which are nonetheless more than legitimate, so I prefer to respond to you on the first part of the issue.

Ok but let's talk about it, I am interested in knowing your point of view; after all, the forum is made for us to compare views on the proposed topics...

I agree with what you say about the market, but I think that here the subject was clearly implied, as were the relative intentions regarding where the discussion was intended to lead.

Almost everything has pros and cons, and I think in this case it referred to the market laws imposed by consumers, certainly viewed not from the perspective of the pros but rather the cons, and I was referring to that circle. It seems clear to me then that the market we are talking about—as well as politics or the church—must have done something good, otherwise the system collapses upon itself. Speaking of this, these cons are discussed because we have reached a point of no return where if there isn't a radical change in mentality, both on the part of institutions and citizens, we are destined to fall... Besides, the market, which goes hand in hand with the economy, is sustained by the exchange of money. The economy is like an engine that must never stop. It is much more important that money circulates within the country than the total amount of money put into circulation. If the engine stops, the country falls. People don't spend, companies close their doors because they cannot pay workers who, in turn, cannot go back to spending. This is how the law of the market comes into play. If people don't spend, prices crash, investors are lost, and other nations are affected as well, and in an instant the crisis becomes global. It doesn't take much to understand that for Italy to rise from this situation, it should pull itself together and invest in companies instead of increasing tax breaks. If taxes are increased, companies are put in a position to close and the country becomes increasingly poor. It is also true that in Italy there is a great lack of responsibility on the part of the leading companies of the economy. Look at FIAT, whose cars cost less in Germany than in Italy. I wonder how that is possible... It would be like going to China and discovering that Chinese phones which are sold here for €150 are sold there for €200. How is it possible, I ask myself? Here too, the market comes into play. Operations research experts at FIAT have studied that Italians do not want to do without the automobile; therefore, the market price can rise, maximizing revenue relative to sales. Everything revolves around market laws. This is what I think. But I would be very curious to know another point of view because I believe that listening to others' opinions can lead to illuminating conclusions, or to ideas that had never been thought of before, so your perplexities on the subject are most welcome.

See you soon

I am responding directly to Simone and indirectly to CrazyPiano:

you, Simone, are making a precise and structured argument here. You take the automobile market as an example and highlight a series of mechanisms that, in your opinion, are "immoral" or otherwise lead to social imbalance. Regarding the specific issue, I have a disdainful attitude; I think the real reason the market has these laws is because society does, and indeed the average Italian, if they want a new car, evaluates the price not according to criteria relative to cost (this car costs 40,000 euros, they spent 2,000 to produce it, so it's a rip-off) but according to criteria relative to their availability (I have the money, I don't have the money). I don't always act this way, but I resign myself to the idea that there are people who think differently.

The fundamental thing in our discussion, however, is that YOU expressed a serious concept and argued it, whereas Rotore threw out clichés that covered the whole world and I compared him to a twelve-year-old... Our own discussion (mine and yours) is limited in many respects, because we are not experts, because this is a music forum, because we don't have all the time in the world. But despite this, it is built on precise terms and topics. I will NEVER consider a thread talking about "market slavery" to be a serious matter! Words have meaning; slavery means slavery, and in human history, slavery has existed and people have died from slavery. I used to get angry when people spoke of Berlusconi as a tyrant; I get angry when people speak of the death of art, when they say that new generations are worse than old ones, that non-EU citizens are criminals, and in the presence of all those undue barroom generalizations made by someone acting like an old man with a glass of wine.

And Rotore even said that he doesn't follow politics and that this is his own reflection... well, from my point of view, it is comparable to the reflection of a twelve-year-old copying Jim Morrison's phrases into a diary.

And in this sense, I also agree with Daniele Scarpetti (with an underlying critical irony): if we are unable to have a SERIOUS discussion about the market, it is because we are ignorant. In Italy, we are very ignorant regarding economic culture; most of us (myself first) are not even able to read a gas bill or understand the terms of our bank account. If the devil is in the details, the subtlety of the statement "the market is the world's problem" demonstrates that we are barely able to see gigantic things; our screen resolution is only a few pixels...

A question that is far too complex (at least for me), but since the media were mentioned, I am certain of one thing... that they certainly have a role (I won't say voluntary responsibility because there is a fine line where this encroaches upon the role itself).

However, if market laws exist, the media cater to demand... and offer. Practically, we have the media we want (or deserve)... with all the shades of gray; I know that things ("the world"?) are not just black or white

Interesting to read how a child's thoughts can trigger so many reflections... let's reflect together:)