"The variety of sonata forms in Beethoven is impressive. It is as if in every sonata he sought to find a unique structure, with its own peculiar dramatic framework, different from any previous work. At a purely formal level, the spectrum of possibilities is surprising (...) No other composer of sonatas has ever approached such a vast range of characters, styles, and forms."
Rosen seems like a respectable theorist to me, because at school they teach us that sonata form is a single model that characterizes the vast majority of the early periods of classical sonatas (and not only)?"
in theory they are right to teach us this way. And as long as he maintains the explanation of sonata form at a generic level (the bithematicism and tripartition, for instance), then the schema adapts to almost everything... the important thing is to understand that a schema is a schema, and that true musical analysis does not try to find confirmations for the schema but, on the contrary, tends to change schemas to adapt them to the music
I quote Tallo. My Teacher used to say that a form is not a box to be filled but a scheme to be organized.
As you know, what is defined as bi-thematic actually presents many more ideas. You find "themes" (or related terms) in the bridge (op.10), in the thematic group of the 2nd theme there are almost always 2-3 (referring to a classification: generating phrase, complementary phrase, cadential group), in the coda, in the development...
(If you look at a series of terraced houses from the outside, they all more or less look alike. If you go inside, you recognize the uniqueness of each one even though having more or less the bathroom, the kitchen, or the bedroom in the same place)
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Zac
Member
Reply 4 by Zac
Posts
19
Thanks to both of you!
Zedef wrote:
(If you look at a row of terraced houses from the outside, they all look more or less alike. If you go inside, you recognize the uniqueness of each one, even though having the bathroom, kitchen, or bedroom in more or less the same place)
I find Zedef's parallelism very useful and interesting.
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Natan
Member
Reply 5 by Natan
Posts
239
I'll take advantage of this topic to ask what you think of the following text:
It seems that Hepokoski and Darcy are currently the most important theorists of sonata form and based on what is illustrated on page 159 of the text… after a series of logical steps related to the management of cadences, the practice of the so-called TMB (Trimodular Block), the presence of two themes in the S zone, i.e., the second theme, divided by a new transition, allows sonatas like Mozart's K332 to even be considered as having 3 Themes, where one would actually emerge in the development.
In the sonata I just mentioned, for those who are curious, after measures 56 to 93 (coda of the exposition, based on elements of the 2nd theme), the 3rd theme should start right at measure 94.
A me sembra abbastanza rivoluzionaria come teoria, solo che storicamente parlando mi sembra strano che nel classicismo pensassero a 3 idee tematiche distinte.
To me, it seems like quite a revolutionary theory, except that historically speaking, it seems strange to me that in Classicism they thought of 3 distinct thematic ideas.
I will take advantage of this topic to ask what you think of the following text:
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false
It seems that Hepokoski and Darcy are currently the most important theorists of sonata form and based on what is illustrated on page 159 of the text… after a series of logical steps related to the management of cadences, the practice of the so-called TMB (Trimodular Block), the presence of two themes in the S zone, i.e., the second theme, divided by a new transition, allows sonatas like Mozart's K332 to even be considered as having 3 Themes, where one would actually arise in the development.
In the sonata I just mentioned, for those who are curious, after measures 56 to 93 (the coda of the exposition, based on elements of the 2nd theme), the 3rd theme should start exactly at measure 94.
To me, it seems like a quite revolutionary theory, except that historically speaking, it seems strange to me that in Classicism they thought of 3 distinct thematic ideas.
What do you say?
Interesting point, Natan. The point is that the theorist's task is to formulate theories to provide new keys of interpretation for music that can indeed lend itself to such a purpose. So it makes sense.
I am reasonably convinced that the word 'development' has a meaning and that never as in Classicism was it about developing (precisely) the material presented in the expositions.
Of course, new ideas can arise from the starting material... combinations of fragments; perhaps it is reasonable to label that passage as a new thematic idea... let's just say that the sonata form was created by the classics and historically speaking, it was bithematic
