Upright Pianists, Children Of A Lesser God?

Well, let's not exaggerate... The operating principle is always the same! Both the upright piano and the grand are instruments that produce sound through the percussion of the same harmonic steel strings. The differences lie rather in the development of these primary elements. In a grand, the soundboard and strings are arranged horizontally, the soundboard is larger than that of an upright, and the action utilizes gravity, making it possible to use the "double escapement" system, even though we know that there is actually only one escapement; there is only one escapement lever. Modern uprights, in order to decrease string inharmonicity and increase the attack transient, have opted for the crossed-string solution, where not only is it possible to exploit the diagonal of a square which is certainly greater than a single side (by utilizing a greater length, it is possible to mount longer and finer strings to produce the same sound, which has an effect on lower inharmonicity as the string is closer to the ideal one), but by crossing the strings, it is possible to produce more harmonics set in motion by sympathy from the strings passing over or under the struck one (assuming they have been released from the dampers). In the upright, for obvious reasons, the returns that occur in a grand due to gravity are simulated by sets of springs and rods; therefore, the action (assuming both are regulated properly) on an upright somehow falls short of that of a grand. In terms of sound, it is not at all certain that an upright sounds worse than a grand. At the conservatory, I played on a Steinway upright, and in my opinion, the sound was better than many grand pianos I have had the chance to try. The same applies to Schimmel and many other brands that also produce upright pianos. The quality of the sound therefore derives from numerous factors: string length, hammer quality, soundboard quality and its resonance capacity, and last but not least, the quality of the pianist's touch. That the upright is a commercial choice may be true—indeed, upright pianos are not used in concerts, but are instead used extensively during practice. But to go as far as calling it an untrue piano... that's quite a stretch!

I agree with Simone. My statement should not be taken literally. Even the big brands have built uprights, including that magnificent instrument you possess!! Bluthner, Bechstein and Steinway uprights are a dream. Naturally we are outside of the "commercial": they are indeed instruments reserved for professionals. There is also the advantage of listening to the sound "in front" and therefore much closer to "the finger on the string". Indeed, one of our "pianistic" goals is to feel as close as possible to the sound body. Leveillant, whom I will mention in my next video on piano technique, which will be released no later than a week from now, invites the pianist to imagine producing the sound as if they were touching the string directly. Almost as if "transcending" that intervening and complex mechanics, against which "we must not fight". Rely on the piano. Do not defy the piano. Compliments

Cristina,

the piano is just an instrument, as the word itself says!

Therefore it is not the end, but the means.

I tried the same thing when I was young with classical and metal guitars: only the list of names changed. But, in the end, it makes no sense to possess an instrument far beyond one's own abilities.

No instrument in the world, not even the best Fazioli, Steinway, Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Pleyel, etc....., can compete with Your pleasure of making and feeling music, so do not worry excessively.

Let's say that an instrument is excellent and unsurpassed when, for the level at which You are, it does not prevent You from realizing the musical concepts you want to express or towards which you strive.

The rest serves either the audience listening to You (but the beauty of the instrument's sound is not the beauty of what is played!), or those who have to sell.

Ultimately, if you live in an apartment and not in a palace, what do you do, give up playing or not?

If you have neighbors, what do you do, deafen them with a Grand Piano or hope to keep them happy with more limited sound power?

And, if your living room measures 5 x 5, what do you do, don't enjoy the fortissimos of the grand because the environment is not suitable?

And then, remember that there are tons of music that sound better on an upright than on any grand! (try it to believe it!)

Thank you very much everyone, you have given me satisfactory answers. I can't wait to see the new video that Maestro Ferrarelli is about to upload. I am very happy to be registered on this site, happy for the competence and for the kindness of all of you. 😳

Warm regards

Cristina

The video will be released starting from next week (from the 30th onwards).

Gennarino wrote:

"remember that there are tons of music that sounds better on an upright than on any grand! (try it to believe it!)"

I believe you. Even Chopin loved playing, in private, on small Pleyel uprights.

But what would these "tons of music" be, in your opinion?

Come on, I really want to try.

Thanks.

...Here I really have to commit myself 😳 .

The third video will deal with the various great Authors who deal with piano technique... but we will make observations and distinctions that will later help us greatly in identifying and resolving.... .........I am saying too much. Thank you for your interest

Boesendorfer wrote:

Gennarino wrote:

"remember that there are tons of music that sounds better on an upright than on any grand! (try it to believe it!)"

I believe you. Even Chopin loved playing, in private, on small Pleyel uprights.

But what would these "tons of music" be, in your opinion?

Come on, I really want to try.

Thank you.

Chopin loved playing on an upright? Wow!!! Now that is beautiful news. Thank you so much Boesendorfer.

Yes, Cristina.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

"Pleyel pianos are still highly prestigious today, and even in his time they were much appreciated by great composers such as Frédéric Chopin or Franz Liszt. The latter, among other things, asserted that when playing for himself, he preferred an upright piano to a grand piano, for a greater sense of "intimacy," which is recognized in the specific timbre of Pleyel instruments."

When I say heaps, I mean heaps, not just little bits.

The fact is that one always thinks of classical music (especially the classical and romantic periods), on one hand, and concert performances, on the other.

If we put the two things together, then the obvious answer is that a coda [grand piano] is necessary, since the acoustic power and persistence required to make even "private" sound "public" can only be obtained with a soundboard (and strings) of significant dimensions.

If, instead, we consider the other dimension of making music, which is the private one, then there is no need to have a tuba; in fact, a clarinet conveys the idea better (even if the tuba also has its own energies).

I won't dwell on the pros and cons, but let us not forget—just as an example—that in a coda, the distance between the instrumentalist and the sound is at its maximum, and this, while being an advantage for certain aspects, is a disadvantage for all those aspects concerning the realization and enjoyment of music by the performer. Here my youthful soul as a classical guitarist also speaks, and the wonderful sensation that the resonance of the soundboard gave to my body.

Another aspect, by no means negligible and of a philological nature, is that much of so-called classical music was also written for instruments that did not have at all the sound power today even generated by an upright piano.

I have a Schimmel upright and, if you come to my house to have a coffee (and that intolerant lady from the apartment below takes me on vacation!), in five minutes of a Mozart sonata (we'll have PianoExpert or TheSimon play it, so that it cannot be said to be the effect of my playing style), you will feel nauseous from the sound pressure that destroys your ears, even if you go into another room; and then, goodbye to pleasure!

Even in music, as in sex, delicacy can win others' favor!

With this premise, try searching among things like these (and do not stop at my list, which is only apparently extensive, but search, search!):

Authors

- Classical: Frescobaldi (Songs: > 80), Couperin (Books: 4), Bach ("The Well-Tempered Clavier", "Twenty-four Preludes and Fugues", Goldberg Variations, Preludes, .....), Domenico Scarlatti (Sonatas: >500), Chopin (Ballades, Mazurkas, Andantes, Preludes, Nocturnes, Waltzes.....), Haydn (>40 Sonatas + >30 Variations + ....), Mozart (Piano Sonatas, Adagios, Dances, some Divertimenti, Minuets, Rondos, ..... ), Hummel (24 Preludes in all keys, Sonatas, Fantasies), Clementi (Sonatas: >100, Sonatinas, Studies); and I'll stop there, without mentioning other greats like Grieg, Sibelius, etc.... because I'm starting to get tired!

Now I move on to what truly amazes me:

- Ragtime: Scott Joplin, Joseph Lamb, James Scott, Tom Turpin, Zez Confrey, Irving Berlin, Jelly Roll Morton, Eubie Blake, ......(Debussy ?)

- American & Salon Music: Louis Moreau Gottschalk (> 150), just to mention one whom I love so much.

Publishers

- Neapolitan music: look for piano and piano/vocal scores from Ferdinando Bideri, Curci, ....

- Italian music: what do you say about Carisch, Ricordi, Ariston .....?

Ah, excuse me if I go back now, but I also like to remember the work of two great researchers, such as Béla Bartók and Zoltán Kodály, which produced things like the two volumes "For Children", "Microcosmos", and my beloved "Romanian Folk Dances".

I'll stop here, exhausted.

Search, search and you will find........

I expect that Someone will give us their long-awaited opinion when they have reached at least a quarter of the cited performances (in double performance). Not everyone can risk a Fazioli.

Gennarino wrote:

"Another aspect, by no means negligible and of a philological nature, is that much of so-called classical music was written for instruments that did not have the sound power levels today even generated by an upright piano."

I have an upright Schimmel and, if you come to my house for a coffee (and that intolerant lady from downstairs someone takes away on vacation!), five minutes into a Mozart sonata (we'll have PianoExpert or TheSimon play it, so that it cannot be said it is the effect of my playing style), you will feel nauseous from the sound pressure that destroys your ears, even if you go to another room; and then, goodbye to pleasure!

Even in music, as in sex, delicacy can find favor with others!"

Thank you for clarifying what you meant by "tons", and that is exactly what I mean too: Baroque-classical period music, and then Bartók, Kodály and everything you mentioned.

If you give me the address, I'll come with my mountain troops friends to pick up the intolerant lady and we'll take her on holiday to the Marmolada glacier, where there are many crevasses, and ......... 😶

I also play on a Schimmel upright, which has a vigorous voice, but I have remedied it with sound-absorbing panels and wool blankets

over the instrument, since I don't use them, because wine, my friend, keeps me warm. 😃😆

Cheers to your health,

Bösendorfer

Ah.. I forgot, sorry, Gennarino, since we both have Schimmel pianos, I wanted to ask you how you find playing with the left pedal depressed.

Some say it shouldn't be used (but then why did they put it there?). I use it very often instead of the horrible una corda, and I don't notice any problem with the mechanics or even the touch.

I think that the Renner action is actually the best in this case.

What do our great experts think?

Thank you

Bösendorfer

I thank Bösendorfer regarding the holiday offer for the intolerant neighbor, especially by virtue of the superhuman beauty of the area where she lives, which gives me great hope that the lady will remain fascinated by the silences of the Marmolada and the depths of the crevasses of the famous glacier.

Regarding sound-absorbing panels and/or blankets, it depends a lot on the modes of sound energy transmission.

In the building where I live, energy is transmitted mainly through structural resonance and not through the diffusion of energy in the air; this, in extreme summary, enormously reduces the possibility of interventions.

Furthermore, the lady is truly an intolerant person, in the sense that - just to give one example in a thousand - she even managed to take offense at Epiphany toward my little one-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter who was pulling along a little wooden snail on wheels (this at eleven o'clock!).

Therefore, I confirm the glacier is a good solution.

As soon as I return to Italy, I invite you all for the aforementioned coffee, obviously with a stop at the lady's house downstairs!

Regarding the left pedal, I don't understand why it shouldn't be used, given that - almost completely - it doesn't change the timbre but only the volume. I have never sensed any problems, not even in the touch response.

Regarding the quality of the actions, I gladly leave the task to someone who, like dear PianoExpert, knows them all, truly all!

Oh, sorry, I forgot!

Since you have the panels, the blankets and even the wine friend, we could also - without cracking the lady - try to get her transferred to the floor below yours, with the offer of a dreamy view and immense silence! I would also add the offer of perennial coolness and sublime wine! (if however you really cannot give up the wine, let's just leave the coolness!).

I remain in spasmodic anticipation of the chosen option!

@Gennarino

Sorry, but how old is your neighbor?

On the floor below, I have the wood shed and the cellar.

In the wood shed, there are two axes, a chainsaw, and other torture instruments....

In the cellar, which is located right below the room with the piano, it is perpetually cool and the view is wonderful: seductive bottles of Teroldego, Marzemino, Blauburgunder, Pinot, Müller-Thurgau, Gewürztraminer, and grappa made from pure pomace. Your "friend" might find it very pleasant there; the piano can barely be heard, but I fear her presence might sour my precious wines.

Up here, I read that Simone is asking for the age of your (for now) neighbor. Tell him she is twenty years old, who knows....

@TheSimon

I don't know how old he is, but I know how old he looks: about 200!

@Bosendorfer

The Teroldego is so good that it would be a waste even just to keep her company!

Hi everyone, but we are just returning from Plojesti, in the middle of a blizzard and now we're running off to eat and then straight to bed!

Regarding the upright piano, as Paolo anticipated, it is possible to touch the string, or even the sound itself produced. On this point, the grand piano has its own "limit": it is made to be listened to by the audience and often those who hear the least are the pianists themselves. I possess a Pleyel/Schimmel baby grand that struck me for its clarity; a characteristic appreciated by everyone except... whoever is playing it at that moment!!! In a domestic environment, acoustic issues also come into play. But the same sensations occur even in theaters with the best concert grand pianos: sounds that go "here and there," as if you want to chase them (these are my sensations!). For an artist, this is very frustrating. It is true that a good upright is better than a terrible grand. However, one must consider the main difference, which is not in the "double escapement," which was designed later to improve performance as the masses necessary to produce sound power increased. The real difference lies precisely in the fact that everything moves in the same direction as the force of gravity, and it is precisely in managing this last one that the various nuances are created. In an upright, there is always the limit of having to overcome forces that do not follow the same direction as the finger, the direction of gravity. Gravity is overcome with weight; other frictional forces are overcome with additional forces beyond the force of gravity. And then another observation: the touch is played out at the escapement point; the key travel serves to manage energy, and therefore dynamics; but everything is decided at the escapement, the crucial point! In an upright, it seems to me that I "lose" the hammer at the most important moment, almost as if everything were played out during the downward stroke of the key between the resting position and the escapement, and then nothing more!

In conclusion, the upright is an "intimate" instrument (not to be misunderstood with sound power), which allows the pianist to be in contact with the sound; the grand piano allows for expression, but it is more extroverted; it is an artistic giving of oneself to those listening, often leaving you not fully conscious of what is happening; the pianist produces the sound, but the listener "touches" it.

I wish to specify that these are not technical considerations, but are dictated by my own personal sensations.

I am adding my own consideration regarding the left pedal. It explains its true action on the grand piano, moving the mechanism laterally and striking the strings (all of them or excluding one, depending on taste and how a specific screw on the right block is adjusted) on a part of the hammer that is tuned differently, softer. In most upright pianos, this pedal shortens the hammer-string distance and, since it leaves the escapement unchanged, I personally do not use it: I prefer more accurate tuning on pp and "playing with the fingers" at that point. Perhaps by shortening the hammer-string distance it becomes easier, but I feel a deception to the brain.