Upright Piano Regulation

Hi Francesco, what do you mean throw it away, are you joking? Pianos can always be repaired, there is no such thing as having to throw them away! I believe that in some cases (for example with studio pianos) if there is too much work to do and therefore a lot of money to spend, it might be more practical to buy another studio piano, but I don't think there are unsolvable problems, especially if you have a certain "spiritual" connection with your instrument. Just think, I have a piano that is 110 years old. A Krauss upright. It was my first piano and there is nothing in the world that will make me sell that piano. Even though almost everything needs to be redone, I am too attached to it, I have so many memories of that instrument, so I understand you well! I am sure that Paolo will be able to give you the factory measurements without any problems and all the advice you want to bring your piano back to a like-new condition.

TheSimon wrote:

Hi Francesco, what do you mean throw it away, kidding? Pianos can always be repaired, it's impossible that they should be thrown away! I believe that in some cases (for example with studio pianos) if there is too much work to do and therefore a lot of money to spend, it might be more practical to buy another studio piano, but I don't think there are unsolvable problems, especially if you have a certain "spiritual" bond with your instrument. Just think, I have a piano that is 110 years old. A Krauss upright. It was my first piano and there is nothing in the world that will make me sell that piano. Even though almost everything needs to be redone, I am too attached to it, I have so many memories of that instrument, so I understand you well! I am sure that Paolo will be able to give you the factory measurements without any problems and all the advice you want to bring your piano back to a like-new condition.

Hi Simone, congratulations again on the idea... you deserve to grow quickly!! I would be curious to know these measurements, even though I think I haven't gone far myself!! The Krauss upright is beautiful; I also have a little old restored one from the old "Anelli" of Cremona that is about 80 years old!

Fra wrote:

Hi Simone, congratulations again on the idea... you deserve to grow quickly!! I would be curious to know these measurements, even though I think I haven't gone far!! The vertical Krauss is beautiful; I also have an old restored one from the old "Anelli" of Cremona that is about 80 years old!

Thank you, we are trying to keep busy. Here in Italy culture, especially musical culture, is being fried, to use a culinary allegory; in our small way, we do everything possible to bring interest back to musical art.

The Krauss has a good sound but much of the action, hammer rail, etc., etc., needs to be redone. For the moment I don't have time to think about my old upright, but Paolo pushed me to fix it, so sooner or later it will take a little trip to my villa in Viterbo and the action will be taken away. The strings (all of them), the capstans, the guides, the pins... will certainly need to be redone. The only things that might be saved are perhaps the pilots. I only hope there is no need to replace the soundboard; I hope it holds with slightly larger blocks. In short, the thing is in quite bad shape, but everything can be fixed. Besides, Paolo knows his trade and does it with passion, so I have no doubts about that. I don't think he is online anymore because it is quite late and I just returned from his house (he seemed a bit sleepy); in any case, tomorrow morning as soon as he reads your message, I am sure he will answer your question providing the data you are looking for.

Best regards

TheSimon wrote:

Thank you, we are trying to keep busy. Here in Italy culture, especially musical culture, is being fried—to use a culinary allegory; in our small way, we do everything possible to bring interest back to musical art.

The krauss has a good sound but most of the action needs to be redone, hammers etc. etc. For the moment I don't have time to think about my old upright, but Paolo pushed me to fix it, so sooner or later we will take a little trip to my villa in Viterbo and he will take the action away. The strings (all of them), the capstans, the guides, the repetitions... will certainly need to be redone. The only things that might be saved are perhaps the pilots. I only hope there is no need to replace the soundboard; I hope it holds with slightly larger glue blocks. In short, the baby grand is in quite bad shape, but everything can be fixed. Besides, Paolo knows his trade and does it with passion, so I have no doubts about that. I think he isn't online anymore because it's quite late and I just returned from his house (he looked a bit sleepy); in any case, tomorrow morning as soon as he reads your message, I am sure he will answer your question providing the data you are looking for.

Best regards

But there is no rush at all, of course!!

In these cases, I also lean towards a complete repair; an instrument, even if historical, must be reliable and provide a feeling of precision when played....the important thing is to maintain its characteristics! If the strings are out of tune, there's little to be done, they must be changed... redoing the soundboard wouldn't be bad! It's already a soundboard integrated into the frame, right? (That makes it easier).

What I think is perhaps best not to do, in my opinion, are cosmetic interventions like repainting the frame; I find that maintaining the signs of time is equivalent to preserving the charm of the instrument....

Dear Francesco,

Compliments! I am in the presence of a technician and, moreover, an attentive person who wants to "understand" their own instrument. Good. The purpose of this site and this forum is also this.

Do not condemn yourself if you hear opinions far from "what you have understood well"... follow your discernment.

Ok.

You said very right things. The proportion of hammer-string distance, key dip, let-off, escapement point is FUNDAMENTAL. You have discovered the "secret of the spoons!!!! Damn them!!!!!" Sometimes they cause problems even on new pianos. That step you feel could be the spoon that lifts the damper but has carved a "little hole" in the white felt on each damper. There is nothing to do but replace them. The work of the dampers is difficult and thankless. Their regulation must be done on the instrument and just a "nothing" can ruin the general perfect ability to dampen the sound: it takes a lot of patience.

The instrument is excellent and glorious. Good uprights, grands... so and so. The springs in the Pollmann, it's true, are a bit robust (you even noticed that), but this is to the advantage of the escapement return. Of course, this also contributes to making you feel the "step". Regarding the hammer rail: Perhaps the original is indeed mahogany. Replacing it would benefit not only the weight, but also the sound quality. After many years, the felt, besides becoming very marked (where it could be shaved), hardens and does not allow for good voicing. Its replacement and voicing are difficult. You must find a good technician. A few grams less is fine, but it would need to be seen. Generally, mahogany is lighter compared to hornbeam.

House measurements (not extremely strict!!): hammer at 45 cm from the string. key dip 10 mm - 10.3. escapement 2 in the bass and 1.5 in the mids and highs. Let-off at 1.5 cm. The damper perhaps rises too early. Delay it a little. It will be better for the legato-staccato difference. It must leave the string when the hammer is about 2 cm from the string. That tool for regulating the spoons is ingenious, but to me, it remains difficult to use. Also, the pedal should not have much travel. Less confusion.

Look, you have a good piano. !!!!I am sure that through successive approximations you will arrive at being satisfied!!! Let me know

Regards Paolo

P.S. If you want, send me a photo of the hammer rail (both bass and treble)

P.P.S. excessive key dip weight could, I say could, depend on the center pins of the hammers, those of the repetitions, and those of the escapements.

pianoexpert wrote:

Dear Francesco,

Compliments! I am in the presence of a technician and, moreover, an attentive person who wants to "understand" their own instrument. Good. The purpose of this site and this forum is also this.

Do not condemn yourself if you hear opinions far from "what you have understood well"... follow your discernment.

Ok.

You said very right things. The proportion of hammer-string distance, key dip, let-off, escapement point is FUNDAMENTAL. You have discovered the "secret of the spoons!!!! Damn you!!!!!" Sometimes they cause problems even on new pianos. That step you feel could be the spoon that lifts the damper but has carved a "little hole" in the white felt on each damper. There is nothing to do but replace them. The work of the dampers is difficult and thankless. Their regulation must be done on the instrument, and just a "nothing" is enough to ruin the general perfect ability to dampen the sound: it takes a lot of patience.

The instrument is excellent and glorious. Good uprights, grand pianos... so and so. The springs in the Pollmann, it's true, are a bit robust (you even noticed this), but this is to the advantage of the escapement return. Of course, this also contributes to making you feel the "step". Regarding the hammer rail: perhaps the original is indeed mahogany. Replacing it would benefit not only the weight, but also the sound quality. After many years, the felt, besides being heavily marked (where it could be shaved), hardens and does not allow for good voicing. Its replacement and voicing are difficult; you must find a good technician. A few grams less is fine, but it would need to be seen. Generally, mahogany is lighter compared to hornbeam.

House measurements (not extremely strict!!): hammer at 45 cm from the string. key dip 10 mm - 10.3 mm. escapement 2 in the bass and 1.5 in the mids and trebles. Let-off at 1.5 cm. The damper perhaps rises too early. Delay it a bit. It will be better for the legato/staccato difference. It must leave the string when the hammer is about 2 cm from the string. That tool for regulating the spoons is ingenious, but to me, it remains difficult to use. Also, the pedal should not have much travel. Less confusion, brother.

Look, you have a good piano. !!!!I am sure that through successive approximations you will arrive at being satisfied!!! Let me know

Regards Paolo

P.S. If you want, send me a photo of the hammer rail (both bass and treble)

P.P.S. excessive key dip weight could, I say could, depend on the center pins of the hammers, those of the capstans, and those of the escapements.

Thank you for the response, finally an expert with whom one can exchange opinions with serenity!!

The regulation I did is in line with what you explained; the only different parameter is the hammer-string distance which I measured again a moment ago: I kept it at 47 mm!! I did some tests with 45 mm but the hammers started bouncing on the pianissimo despite the 2 mm of escapement.

The step effect at 3/4 of the key dip no longer occurs today because I had already taken steps to postpone the dampers (spoons) making them intervene when the hammer head has slightly passed the "halfway point". This results in a distance from the strings of 2 cm at the point of intervention, as you said. It only occurred with the right pedal pressed because despite the full depression of the pedal, the spoons still intervened at about 3/4 of the key dip, making the damping retreat by a few more millimeters! The resistance of the spring that appeared suddenly before the escapement was very annoying on the pianissimo!!!!! Now, with the resonance pedal fully depressed, when the keys are depressed, the spoons "barely touch" only the damper blades!!!

(this is to better explain which step I was referring to).

Returning to the hammers instead, I was advised an Abel hammer rail with maple wood! I don't know hornbeam, however; is it just common hammers with lighter wood?

As for the photos, I will try to post some here immediately, so we can involve the users!!

Let's start with the cantabile section:

Then moving on to the bass (two-string choruses)

This, however, is the instant when the spoon begins to grip the damper blade; the hammer has already traveled a bit of 'road' but the damping has not yet lifted... the hammer head is located about 2 cm from its own string, perspective is deceiving!!!

here instead you can see the instant when the hammer is about to escape from the string (escapement point at 2 mm from the string):

and finally the hammer's stop by the brake, with the damper having completely released the string and the hammer being 1 cm away from the string:

Hammer stop from another perspective:

still a stop, but seen from below :-D You can also see the brake of the escapement levers; it would be interesting to discuss its regulation...

many keep it in such a way that it never comes into function!!! Personally, I don't like finding myself in conditions where the hammer falls too far back when a key is pressed, perhaps resulting in being unable to restrike!!

These, on the other hand, are the felt spacers that I glued between the fixed bar and the approach bar, one at each support of the action, to reduce the hammer-string distance from 50 mm to 47 mm

A miraculous tool that helped me perform a uniform regulation:

What an effort to upload them all. Now, do not take these regulations as gospel; I am not a piano technician but an industrial engineer!!! I can say, however, that the setup works and that the Renner action, this specific action, allows for many different setups if one has imagination....

Maestro, tell us!!

Dear engineer, you are extremely scrupulous.

1) The hammer rail is perfectly fine... let's forget about maple... hornbeam. On the upright, the weight of the hammers is not very decisive (at least for those small differences). On the grand, however, ONE GRAM ON THE HAMMER EQUALS ABOUT SIX GRAMS ON THE KEY. The hammer rail seems good to me. I only have some suspicion that on the treble notes it has been shaved... and in a rounded way. Tell me.

The rest is all fine.

Everything we hear on the upright that we would like to improve (steps, springs that are too robust... etc.) sometimes also depends on the design, especially the length of the key. A longer key, teach me, Engineer, has a different dynamics and inertia. When everything is short, as in an upright, frictions are somewhat accentuated and we, if we are sensitive to this, perceive little uniformity... we look for it. I told you that the robustness of the springs is typical of this instrument and this increases the sensations of friction. You have improved, I would say, things at most, and I see you very attentive to these sensitive changes. Well. Compliments. The purpose of our site is precisely, and not only, I repeat, to transmit, instill, develop interest and make people understand what needs to be done or requested to make our instruments work well.

I would say you couldn't act any better.

Be careful that this desire to always improve the instrument does not become an obsession. Every instrument has its limits, even a Steinway. Your instrument is truly good. Its hammer rail is of the type impregnated in mahogany and any hammer rail maker would advise you to remake it exactly the same. The important thing is its "shape".... let's hope it hasn't been shaved, flattening especially the treble notes. There, the strike point must be precise and, besides shifting when felt is removed, it would become more indeterminate if the shape of the hammer were made rounded (never!), generating strange harmonics. Check... but remember that when you replace it, it must be identical!!!! (I don't think it's time to do so)

I hope I have said the right things, based only on photos and indications. If we ever meet, we will talk more deeply right in front of your instrument... I say YOUR... there is no need to use formal address!!!!

Hello, dear friend Engineer and sensitive and attentive pianist-technician

Paolo

pianoexpert wrote:

Dear engineer, you are extremely scrupulous.

1) The hammer rail is perfectly fine... let's forget about maple... hornbeam. On the upright, the weight of the hammers is not very decisive (at least for those small differences). On the grand, however, ONE GRAM ON THE HAMMER EQUALS ABOUT SIX GRAMS ON THE KEY. The hammer rail seems good to me. I only have some suspicion that on the treble it has been shaved... and in a rounded way. Tell me.

Everything else is fine.

Hi, you are very kind to respond. Reasoning rationally, it is natural that the weight difference has little influence on the upright since the weight component is almost entirely constrained (vertically, indeed) by the action. Only at the attack is there a resistant component due to the hammer, thanks to the initial inclination beyond the vertical. What would worry me most about changing the type of hammer would be having to modify the inertia of the system; in the end, once everything is regulated like this, the few extra grams don't cause much trouble. Regarding instead the lubrication (dry and of the pins) of the action, what can you tell me?

pianoexpert wrote:

Everything we hear on the upright that we would like to improve (steps, springs that are too robust... etc.) sometimes also depends on the design, especially the length of the key. A longer key, teach me, Engineer, has a different dynamics and inertia. When everything is short, as in an upright, frictions tend to be accentuated and we, if we are sensitive to this, perceive little uniformity... we look for it. I told you that the robustness of the springs is typical of this instrument and this increases the sensations of friction. You have improved, I would say, things at most and I see you very attentive to these sensitive changes. Well. Compliments. The purpose of our site is precisely, and not only, I repeat, to transmit, instill, develop interest and make people understand what needs to be done or requested to make our instruments work well.

The good Mr. Sangalli, whom I always cite, when faced with the problem immediately spoke to me about the importance of key length! He told me that the best results are obtained on instruments with long levers; this is physically understandable.

He showed me a German upright from the '30s with long keys and asked me to try it. Very pleasant!

My instrument, unfortunately, is not among those that has the longest keys in its category, and this is indeed a limitation.

pianoexpert wrote:

I would say you couldn't act any better.

Be careful that this desire to always improve the instrument does not become an obsession. Every instrument has its limits, even a Steinway. Your instrument is truly good. Its hammer rail is of the type impregnated in mahogany and any hammer rail manufacturer would advise you to remake it exactly the same. The important thing is its "shape".... let's hope it hasn't been shaved, flattening especially the treble. There, the striking point must be precise and, besides moving when the felt is removed, it would become more indeterminate if the shape of the hammer were made rounded (never!), generating strange harmonics. Check... but remember that when you replace it, it must be identical!!!! (I don't think it's time to do that)

I also believe I have finally found a correct balance of the parts. As far as the shape of the hammers on the central section is concerned, they seem, it's true, a bit flattened but I don't think they have ever been shaved. It is probable that they were brushed... once a technician came to tune it while I was on vacation; I wasn't home but I had already made an appointment. That day a friend was at home who had to feed the cat and so I trusted him...

I will try to upload a clearer photo, they are probably just flattened from use.

pianoexpert wrote:

I hope I have said the right things, based only on photos and indications. If we ever meet, we will talk more deeply right in front of your instrument... I say YOUR... there is no need to use formal address!!!!

Hi, dear friend Engineer and sensitive and attentive pianist-technician

Paolo

Very well, whenever you want, perhaps under the pretext of a tuning... if you pass through Milan!!

ciao, keep it up!!

P.S. pianist and technician are big words!!!

Regarding the center pins: NO LUBRICATION!!!!! If anything, they should be replaced, always making them larger. Attention, cylindrical reamers must be used and not CONICAL ones, like those used for reaming holes in gas machines. This way you will obtain perfect adherence to the Cashmere by the pin. Very delicate work, but with exceptional results. You should disassemble a stand and then a hammer and see the friction of the pins. How? Well, if you don't have the appropriate measuring tool... then the forks must "fall" uniformly and gently under the weight of their own screw. The escapement alone, freed from the spring, must fall by itself.

Good work

I will try the pins you suggested, in which area is it convenient to evaluate the sample???

in the meantime I have taken clearer photos of a hammer from the central region...

if you are not then frightened by the pitiful audio quality, I will also let you hear a chord played on the same section (forte):

the microphone even goes into resonance at a certain point....

Open content (youtube)

The piano seems very out of tune to me... I don't know if it could be the effect of a poor microphone. I would like to see a photo of the HIGH tuning pins. To test the pins: two for each section. Removing the first and last of each section is quite easy.

Here is a photo of a treble hammer:

I also carried out some tests on the pins. The cursed ones are these here:

I am reporting the resistance measurements from the treble towards the bass (as you suggested, I disassembled the ends of each section):

5 g, 5 g, 22 g(!!), 1 g (!!!), 5 g, 8 g (!!!)

I don't know what to say...

I also noticed that the white felts in contact with the spoons are in good condition on the trebles and the extreme basses, while in the central region the situation is this:

there is a dent...

Regarding the tuning, try listening here to see if the sensation is the same (it is recorded with a different medium).... it is also thanks to the constant dissatisfaction with the tuning that I would be tempted to purchase a tuning key.... I often find that right after tuning, intervals (for example tenths) are unlistenable with notes clashing.... far from harmony...

Hi

Open content (youtube)

Dear Francesco....... you take me back in time... goodness, I am starting to get old and full of memories.

I was a young man and had, with great enthusiasm, bought a new Petrof upright from Ciampi.

I was coming from a family piano, a Feurich from Berlin, excellent sound, but with a bayonet mechanism ....it didn't work.

The tuner arrived at the house and started working for about an hour. When he left.... in my opinion... the piano was out of tune. But... how can that be, I thought... I was testing exactly.... THE DECIMAS. At that time I was studying Chopin's second scherzo, which I also played in my last concert..... for me the tuning wasn't right.

Anyway, I went to the shop. Comm. Mario Ciampi, whom I remember with esteem and much affection, welcomed me with his usual smile. He asked me how the piano was doing. I replied that I was perplexed. "What's happening? - he asked me -" I replied that I didn't know... perhaps I suspected that it wouldn't "hold the tuning"

"Are you joking?" - he said. A pause. Then he smiled again and said to me: "I understand, now I'll send Orsini to you"

Orsini came with his swaying gait and that somewhat hoarse voice, marked by a sincere Roman accent. "What's happening, Mae?"

"Do you hear the decimas?" and him: "AH.... I understand" and he set to work. (he asked me who had come before him)

When Orsini left that house, the piano was a different instrument!!!! Dammit!!!!! what had happened??

I went immediately to Ciampi and thanked him for sending me that guy. Great satisfaction from the Commendatore.

I couldn't wait for the piano to go out of tune so I could call Orsini back.... That type interested me a lot and I had decided to understand what his secrets were.

When "the time" came, Orsini returned.

We became great friends and now I remember him with great affection.

He told me many things, among them the episode of having saved Rubinstein's recording of Chopin's Mazurkas at RCA on via Tiburtina. Later he introduced me to the great Maestro.

From that day.. he also taught me many things!

THE DECIMAS!!!!!!!

Dearest, the decimas are the litmus test, the proof of nine, of the tuning. In my video there is only a mention, but there would be much to say.

It is very difficult to achieve a "brilliant" tuning. It is also important then to voice the hammers well, ...you also discovered something about friction, it also seems to me that the highs and not only them have been shaved (not very pointed). The damper hole can be lubricated with DRY Teflon spray (no greasy lubrication). Naturally, the hole is the lowest one. Make sure the spoons are "clean". The center pins should be checked; if they are so discontinuous.... they should be uniformly replaced.

I advise against intervening personally in the tuning if you do not have practice.

Anyway, I have rambled too much. Excuse my little story from the past!

See you soon

Paolo

P.S. If you want, send me your phone number, so I can call you and we can have a chat.

maybe contact me at my email address ferrarelli@inwind.it

Of course I'll leave you the number!

It is interesting that it always ends up with evaluating the same aspects as external observers... today everyone sees us very well but it seems they hear us poorly...

the various tuners I have had the opportunity to know have missed at least one note, not to mention the context (beats, softening of intervals, etc.) and therefore I did not call them back, I preferred to change... at a certain point I start to think that the problem is mine. I don't know if it's better to go ahead with the "best of many" only to then confront them with my perplexities. Provided that the professional is not touchy.

However, I still have to understand why in shops pianos always seem beautiful and once brought home they become a heap of defects :-D

Anyway, now I realize I am able to evaluate better. A few weeks ago I was in a shop trying out a brand new C5 (I'm thinking of buying one... I like it overall, this is curious because I have always been an anti-Yamaha). The keyboard seemed strange to me, I couldn't connect... I was struggling a lot!

Fortunately, the shop technician was present, and I asked him if he had weights with him, I wanted to do a check!! He comes to the piano and says to me in an annoyed tone: "listen, I should now remove the action to evaluate the weight!" and I reply: "but have patience, if you press the pedal the dampers are excluded, right?" And him: "oh yes, well done... shall you press the pedal for me?" Before performing the measurement, he declares: "anyway, all pianos have 52 grams of depression in the first octave". And I reply: "but excuse me, I have never found one like another". He replies: "any piano!".

I observe him perplexedly and as if by chance the key went down with 56 grams! I say that that didn't scare me much and I wanted to evaluate more than anything the return. And here another sentence: "it must rise with 26 grams!!". This time I say nothing and observe his embarrassment once he reached 22 grams without the key being able to return up: "here we are at about 20 grams", he states annoyed... then the shop owner who witnessed the whole scene asks the technician: "but did we regulate this one?" he mumbles something and leaves.

It is not easy to purchase a piano.

Paolo, have you ever explained in one of your videos how to evaluate the charge of the soundboard??? (I am referring to checking the level difference on the string to be detected across the bridge).

It would be interesting, it is one of the aspects that customers of Japanese pianos refurbished somewhere often ignore!!!

Wow, it reminds me of the Werckmeister III tuning I heard in a performance of a Bach prelude instead of equal temperament. Did they happen to tune your piano with an electronic instrument?

Dear Fra,

We must not exaggerate regarding measurements and numbers!!

When a piano is in a shop, it isn't followed much, or rather, not at all. They think that when the buyer arrives... then it will be time to tune it up.

Sometimes, at first, having been stationary for a long time, there might be some excessive resistance between the parts. But we will see. An instrument is alive and changes according to temperature and relative humidity.

The C5 is an excellent, I say excellent! However, one must see where he places it in the house. Recently, I had a pianist change the position of his Steinway. It took me a long time to convince him. Now, in the new position, it has changed sound! And he hears it better. He is very happy and I did nothing to the piano.....

Everything changes by changing one small thing. I am convinced that even your beautiful Schulze Polmann can sound better.

I remember studying a lot on it at the home of a teacher in Rome where I used to go for lessons as a boy. I felt this robustness of the springs, but sometimes they pleased me.

It is the task... and damnation of the pianist to always find themselves facing different instruments!!! As Peppino De Filippo said in the one-act play "Don Raffaele e il trombone": ".....The next time I am reborn, I will play the clarinet"........Naturally, he was referring to the un-Neapolitan struggle of carrying around an instrument of that weight. He would enter the scene completely covered by the "burden" of the brass. Obviously, when with great effort he placed it on the ground and turned to the audience, wiping his sweat with a handkerchief... he would win over the theater!! (from the applause)