What is a Musical Composition

Marta23 wrote:

I was re-reading the various posts, it seems to me that Thallo's manages to understand everything

And thank goodness Varèse's seemed generic to you...

Marta23 wrote:

I was re-reading the various posts, and it seems to me that Thallo's manages to understand everything.

And thank goodness Varèse's seemed generic to you...

Marta23 wrote:

I would like to raise the difficulty bar; if you had to explain it to a class of children under 10, how would you behave?

What do you propose?

Marta23 wrote:

I would like to raise the bar regarding difficulty; if you had to explain it to a class of children under 10, how would you behave?

Well then, say so right away! If you have to explain something to children, ask for that, rather than asking to define composition tout court, so one avoids bringing up Varèse and Stockhausen, for heaven's sake! Speak clearly, Marta, speak clearly! "I have to explain to elementary school children what musical composition is and I don't know where to start: what do you suggest?"

Einstein used to say "You cannot say you have understood something if you are not able to explain it to your grandmother," and this also applies to children. Before thinking about explaining what something is to children in simple words, you should know yourself what that thing is; in any case, for "under 10" children, I would say: "You know when you write a little story to say how your holidays with mom and dad went? Well, a composition is like a little story, but written with notes."

PS warning for the sophists: I know it's not that simple, before you tell me that music isn't a story and all those things. I know, but they are "under 10" children and telling them that "music is an asemantic art" seems premature to me.

Generality always pays ahahah

To children, I would say that when we make music, and there is a beginning and an end, that is a musical composition. When we make music and it's not clear if there is a beginning and an end, that is just confusion

In reality, it is the children's version of Aristotle's definition of tragedy, an accomplished action.

Great ideas.

Frank wrote:

What do you propose?

I had in mind something like "A design to be listened to"

Carlos wrote:

Then say it right away!

....that's just how I am ...what can I do

Marta23 wrote:

I had in mind something like "E' a drawing to listen to"

Oh my god, maybe children will like it.

I am convinced that, however, one should explain as little as possible to kids. I mean, in technical and abstract terms. The concept of "musical composition" is complex; for me, they could easily call everything a "song," and no one would be offended. I am not an expert in developmental pedagogy, but I imagine that as small children, they learn much more by doing, imitating, and not "overthinking" definitions. So, the more you listen and the fewer concepts...

but it's a layman's opinion"

I would do even more Thallo, I wouldn't say anything to them, I would make them listen to a piece and ask them to define what a musical composition is ... but only after a healthy listening session

Carlos wrote:

Here, a composition is like a little story, but written with notes.

PS warning for the sophists: I know it's not that simple, before you tell me that music isn't a story and all those things there.

In reality, a good chunk of music has a narrative character, which is why I find your proposal very much on point

I would make them sing one at a time and record them in a row. I would rewind the tape and let them listen to what they sang, and at the end, I would tell them that it is their composition.

lory wrote:

I would make them sing one at a time and record them in a row. I would rewind the tape and let them listen to what they sang, and at the end, I would tell them that it is their composition.

I like your idea, but what would they sing... if it's known material, it won't be THEIR musical composition, but a musical composition sung by them... eventually at most it will become an improvisation...

Don't you think?

Or are you referring specifically to humming whatever comes to mind? Even if it isn't exactly new... but... maybe that gets the point across...

But I was thinking of having them hum anything that wasn't something already existing. Children have a lot of imagination and it won't be difficult for them to do this exercise. It would be nice to walk around the class with the recorder, having the first one start singing and then moving to the second who must continue following the first. In this way, while also making the children have fun, you could understand who is gifted and who is not, in a very painless way. These would be considerations that would remain with you as a teacher, so that you can regulate yourself in the future on what to expect from one child and what not to expect from others.

At the end of the game, there is a re-listening to their "composition". I think for them it would be a very cute and instructive game.

lory wrote:

But I was thinking of having them hum anything that wasn't something already existing. Children have a lot of imagination and it won't be difficult for them to do this exercise.

One of the hardest things to make someone understand, whether a child or an adult without musical knowledge, is the work that goes into a piece, even a short one. When you explain to a person that even behind "Für Elise" there is a form, there is a compositional process etc. etc., normally their face is something like "form? in Für Elise? what are you talking about? it's just a little tune you whistle in the shower!" and things like that... The idea that composition is actually something linked to an "inspiration" (and only that) and spontaneity is difficult to uproot.

Therefore, I believe that the idea of having a group of children sing the first thing that comes to mind in an absolutely free and random way, recording it, and then telling them that "that is their composition" is not a very good idea, because it would do nothing but perpetuate this idea, according to which composing means putting down on paper (or even not?) the first thing that comes to your head. The result would probably be a conclusion like "bravo, but Beethoven thought of the Ninth, eh?!".

Instead, with the means available and without frustrating the children, we must make them understand that behind a composition there is, first and foremost, a thought.

I understand Carlos, but Loy's proposal can be a starting point, to then during the re-listening... point out that after the first step, the "inspired" parts... need to be organized in some way.

And in the meantime they will have taken an interest in the subject matter, a fundamental aspect at that age

🙂

Open content (youtube)

Xenakis wrote:

I understand Carlos, but Loy's proposal can be a starting point, to then during re-listening... point out that after the first step, the "inspired" parts... must be organized somehow.

And in the meantime, they will have become interested in the subject matter, a fundamental aspect at that age.

I continue to disagree, but obviously I have no intention of imposing my point of view on anyone. Personally, I began having my first contacts with music at 7/8 years old and nobody ever made me "improvise," neither singing nor playing, only to tell me that "that was a composition." And I was absolutely enthusiastic both about the hours I spent singing Palestrina's three-voice motets and playing folk melodies on the flute, etc., etc. The things learned as children are difficult to forget, and I believe there are many other ways (especially more correct ones) to explain to a child what a composition is. Interest in the subject must be aroused through correct information, even if provided with fun and apparent lightness. Wrong information, even if it creates interest, remains wrong information. At ten years old, with my classmates from the musical preparatory course, we would write (obviously heavily guided by two excellent teachers) the music and the libretto for a musical fairy tale that we then played, sang, and performed. It was the result of several months of work spent truly playing and learning together what it really meant to write a musical fairy tale. Nothing was left to chance and, there, truly, we all learned what "composing" meant. Children are "sponges," and instilling the idea that "whatever comes out" if you sing a bit randomly "is a composition" is very easy, but the difficult part is correcting course later. Furthermore, how do you explain to a group of children how Bach composed, when he didn't have a recorder to listen back to what he had sung/played?

beautiful discussion!

i am on the same page as Carlos: great importance of the organizational and projective factor in a composition "taking shape."

A child I would say:

often a musician feels a sea, an ocean, of sounds inside themselves. They are impetuous, terrible, sweet, caressing sounds.... many and very different from each other. They are like confused ideas.

Among all these ideas there is one that attracts them the most. So they try to concentrate on this one.

They concentrate only on those sounds and let go of all the others (the others, perhaps, they will think about next time).

And they work and work at it until that idea made of sounds - composition - resonates precisely in their head.

Then they write the notes on the staff, so everyone can play and listen to it

In principle, I agree with Carlos regarding the widespread ignorance of the work that goes into the craft of composition (I'll add an observation: how is it that in high school one studies Art History, and therefore knows more or less painters, sculptors, periods, artistic movements, techniques, etc., etc., while Music History is not studied?).

On the other hand, since kindergarten, children are given paper and markers, and they are taught to draw. Therefore, I have never happened to hear a child asking "what is a drawing?": they have direct experience of it, they have created it themselves (I would also add: they have used drawing as a means of expression).

By analogy, from a young age, children will have learned some little songs. That little song, however simple, is a composition. To the question "what is a composition?", I would therefore respond not with a definition, but in a purely exemplary way, starting from my little interlocutor's direct experience, and I would say "a composition is, for example, the little song xyz".

Dear RedScharlach,

you are putting your finger on a truly large wound: "how is it that in High School one studies Art History (...) while one does not study Music History?"

and why, I do not know. I know it is a great shame, a great sadness.

However, for two weeks I have known since when things have been this way. Last Saturday the 9th, I went to Milan to hear Quirino Principe presenting the upcoming republication of his essay on Beethoven's quartets (not a simple republication, but a reimagining: from what he said). Well, among the things he said, before getting into the heart of the matter, speaking about musical culture, the spread of music, the situation of the country Italy . . . he stated that it was from the unification of Italy that music was excluded from "scuole normali" (I understood "scuole normali" as compulsory schools, so we are talking about a level much lower than high schools).

What can one say . . . "hurrah!". They have hurt us and . . . we go forward (in schools) without doing ourselves any good.