Why a Mozart record intended for children?

danielescarpetti wrote:

(...) music professionals because, as such, they have far more valid tools to assert their preferences than by attaching themselves to heart or soul.

You're telling yourself? . . . Maybe - in some cases - you are too good

Let's skip the filler phrases of speeches like "Music that touches the heart." If we want to talk about the heart in a broad sense, everyone has theirs and I agree with Daniele. A Rock track can touch the heart of a lover of that genre just as a Beethoven sonata can touch the heart of someone sensitive to his music. However, regarding the discussion of simplicity-complexity in Mozart, I must say that I find it correct. This is because, in reality, everything seems extremely simple in Mozart; then, when you measure yourself against his works, you discover that behind that apparent simplicity there is an entire world to discover, both in terms of intentions and technique. The cleanliness of the phrasing in Mozart is very important; even a single small imprecision can ruin the magical atmosphere that is created when one is inside the piece.

TheSimon wrote:

The cleanliness of phrasing in Mozart is very important; even a single small inaccuracy can ruin the magical atmosphere that is created when one is inside the piece.

I strongly agree. This is a serious argument that doesn't involve... 'o core.

However, I would speak of the difficulty for the performer to best interpret simple pieces made with little (this applies to much of Mozart's music, but also to enchanting pieces like Chopin's Prelude in A major, or 'First Disillusionment' from Schumann's Album for the Young).

I used to think that simplicity-complexity was an impossible binomial, but I have changed my mind.

There exists the complexity of certain pieces with an intricate construction of voices in which, however, I do not sense an artificial forcing: everything flows along in a simple manner (as if: 'it must be so').

I think of much 'dense' music like many of the opening choruses of Bach's cantatas, or certain duets with triplets and obbligato accompaniment. Also by Bach, the Omnes generationem and the Sicut locutus of the Magnificat. Another example: the density of the opening movements of Brahms' Second and Fourth symphonies.

Goodness... Even in Mozart there are moments of complex-simplicity, but not in everything he composed.

. . . Then I don't know exactly what Leporello meant by 'simplicity-complexity (in Mozart)'

Let's go to Beethoven... Do you know what I think is the most difficult part of the Op. 110 sonata? The adagio. Reading it, it's only 4 notes, but getting into it without risking becoming overly romanticized, while staying within Beethoven, is truly difficult. Returning to Mozart, do we want to talk about the second movement of the 488? There would be a myriad of examples regarding this discussion of simplicity-complexity, but Mozart is undoubtedly the author in whom this discussion is found most easily.

TheSimon wrote:

Let's go to Beethoven... Do you know what I think is the most difficult part of the Op. 110 sonata? The adagio. Reading it, it's only 4 notes, but getting into it without risking becoming overly romanticized, while staying within Beethoven, is truly difficult. Returning to Mozart, do we want to talk about the second movement of the 488? There would be a myriad of examples regarding this discussion of simplicity-complexity, but Mozart is undoubtedly the composer in whom this discussion is found most easily.

Open content (youtube)

Open content (youtube)

I apologize for temporarily abandoning—for time reasons—this topic of mine

danielescarpetti wrote:

Frank's relationship with Beethoven is rather convoluted—correct me if I'm wrong, dear Frank—and it goes in alternating currents; I sense this from the posts of his that I have always read, in this forum and in a previous forum where we virtually met.

Obviously, this inconsistency is perceived by your children.

Is the type of Beethovenian processing distant from the world of childhood? It certainly is more so compared to Mozart, but it becomes difficult to assert this compared to 20th-century composers. Therefore, your children set aside Beethoven's music because they feel that their father... in a certain sense doesn't quite follow it, at least.

The reality of the facts is that I am like the 2 of spades when trumps are clubs.

They are the ones who choose regardless of my opinion; I limit myself to proposing, padding the presentation of the composer with a few words... something like: "He is one of the most important composers (NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT; I AM NOT ONE FOR ABSOLUTES) in music history." Then they do the rest and I "have to" listen to Mozart

Frank wrote:

I apologize for temporarily abandoning - due to time constraints - this topic of mine

The reality of the facts is that I count as the two of spades when clubs is trump.

They are the ones who choose regardless of my opinion; I merely limit myself to proposing, padding the presentation of the composer with a few words... something like: "He is one of the most important composers (NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT; I AM NOT ONE FOR ABSOLUTES) in music history." Then they do the rest and it's "up to me" to listen to Mozart

Mozart is still... Mozart!

Considering then that they also listen to Bartók... I think that sooner or later they will get to Beethoven, also because Bartók truly started from Beethoven in his Quartets.

"poor" Frank ... you have to listen to Mozart , , , on this I agree with Daniele.

dear Daniele . . . as for the fact that Frank's children will eventually arrive at Beethoven, I would bet on that too. But I wouldn't take for granted that this will happen with certainty just because they passed through Bartok... and Bartok in his quartets started from Beethoven.

I have experienced firsthand that, regarding the variation of personal tastes and interests in the various seasons of life, more than the logical "consequentiality" of stylistic relationships between one composer and another, what matters is:

1) personal needs and the state of mind of the moment

1a) a friend or someone who "gets in your head" with their passion-conviction and tells you in many ways and many times that you cannot ignore that certain composer whom they are crazy about.

my personal case:

1) I don't know when (on my own) I would have approached Brahms if I hadn't heard and re-heard your enthusiastic interventions regarding his works

2) I don't know when (on my own) I would have approached Mahler without the interventions of that "fanatic" Viola who was later banned from the forum

LucaCavaliere wrote:

my personal case:

1) I don't know when (on my own) I would have approached Brahms if I hadn't heard and re-heard your enthusiastic interventions regarding his works

2) I don't know when (on my own) I would have approached Mahler without the interventions of that "fanatic" Viola who was then banned from the forum

But if you think about it carefully, there have been interventions on Stockhausen, Xenakis (Composer), etc., but I don't know if you approached them. Therefore, I fear that the tastes of others are not the point, but rather simply one's own sensitivity of the moment toward a certain repertoire or the empathy with a person who, having influence over another (for various reasons... for a woman I even listened to Cocciante), can implicitly "force us" to listen to music distant from our taste... and as we often tell ourselves, re-listening is easier than listening. Because after we have approached [it] for various reasons, it is simpler

I think you are both right; one approaches a composer - or a musical genre - when personal needs and the state of mind of the moment require it, and often driven by people who, having influence over another, can implicitly "force us" to listen to music far from our taste.

The proof lies precisely in the fact that you, Luca, approached Brahms not when I began my "sermon," but when you felt that psychological necessity, and the same thing happened with Mahler.

And here we return to Frank and his children.

Frank's children are fortunate to have a father who loves a certain type of music that is not what children normally listen to. This allows them to access it naturally. Frank, rightly so, does not influence them with ABSOLUTES, and this ensures they choose their music within the scope of that repertoire without being influenced.

But now they are children, and as they grow, they will direct their choices in a more "adult" manner that will lead them to either confirm certain childhood choices or even completely overturn them; this will depend on many factors ranging, first and foremost, from the relationship they will have - or continue to have - with music, but also from choices of an exquisitely psychological nature, from encounters, loves, and heartbreaks, and thus from what will happen to them in their lives.

Xenakis wrote:

But if you think about it, there have been interventions on Stockhausen, Xenakis (Composer), etc., but I don't know if you have approached them.

No, I haven't approached them (and I was also expecting this observation )

Anyway, I substantially agree with you when you say that the sensitivity of the moment is important. In fact - I too - had written as the first point "personal needs and the state of mind of the moment".

Only that, you see, I bought myself the complete Mahler symphonies for Christmas 2015. Only they remained in their cellophane until July 2016 when I started reading Viola's interventions.

With Brahms and Daniele, however, Daniele is right: the opposite occurred

LucaCavaliere wrote:

It's just that, you see, I gave myself the Mahler symphony integral for Christmas 2015. It's just that it remained in its cellophane until July 2016 when I started reading Viola's interventions.

And this is what shows the fact that "a hair of f... pulls more than a cart of oxen"

In the sense that the interventions themselves don't make an impact; besides, Mahler hasn't been talked about since Viola has been around, and to buy the CDs means that somehow, you had heard Mahler mentioned much earlier. Whoever has influence over a person can... more or less implicitly, condition the direction of listening. At least that's as close as one can get; in my case, in the end, I threw away the Cocciante CDs

As far as I am concerned, I think that beyond the "hairs" and the "influences," what brings us closer to or distances us from everything - and thus also from music and its composers - is always "elective affinities."

We listen to the music that we feel closest to our "being."

This closeness is not always and only given by the quality of that music, but also by feeling an affinity with the person and the life of the composer who composed it.

I predominantly listen to music by Beethoven, Bach, Mussorgsky, Shostakovich, Brahms, and Nono, and I am completely aware of why I have these preferences, which are nonetheless always linked to my "being.".

Xenakis wrote:

 somehow, you had heard the name Mahler mentioned much earlier.

certamente I had heard of him. For years I was listening to his First Symphony and I couldn't manage to go beyond that one.

I had also (for years) borrowed all the other symphonies from my local library (one per week)... but after a listen, I just couldn't convince myself that it was something for me.

I repeat: sometimes another person's enthusiasm - without getting into the weeds - can be more than just a listening guide

That Mozart reaches where others do not, after all, is nothing new. It is no coincidence that one of the deepest reflections on music was conducted by Kierkegaard, who was not a musician ("I know well that I do not understand music, I gladly admit to being a profane, I do not hide that I do not belong to the chosen ranks of music connoisseurs"), and was dedicated to Don Giovanni. And indeed: "In music there can certainly be many other classical works, but there is only one opera of which it can be said that its idea is absolutely musical, so that music does not enter it as accompaniment, but as a manifestation of the idea, as a manifestation of its deepest being. Therefore Mozart with his Don Giovanni stands above all the other immortals". Or: "Whoever wants to know Mozart in his true immortal greatness must consider Don Giovanni: compared to it everything else is accidental, secondary. But when Don Giovanni is considered in a way that also takes into account some other parts of Mozart's works, I am convinced that neither he, nor himself, nor his neighbor is diminished or prejudiced. On the contrary, one will have the opportunity to rejoice that the true power of music is exhausted in expressing itself in the music of Mozart". Or more briefly: "Furthermore, I believe that Mozart is the greatest of all classical authors, and that his Don Giovanni deserves the highest place among all classical works".

RedScharlach wrote:

That Mozart reaches where others do not, after all, is nothing new. It is no coincidence that one of the deepest reflections on music was conducted by Kierkegaard, who was not a musician ("I know well that I do not understand music, I gladly admit to being a profane, I do not hide that I do not belong to the chosen ranks of music connoisseurs"), and was dedicated to Don Giovanni. And indeed: "In music there can certainly be many other classical works, but there is only one opera of which it can be said that its idea is absolutely musical, so that music does not enter it as accompaniment, but as a manifestation of the idea, as a manifestation of its deepest being. Therefore Mozart with his Don Giovanni stands above all the other immortals". Or: "Whoever wants to know Mozart in his true immortal greatness must consider Don Giovanni: compared to it everything else is accidental, secondary. But when Don Giovanni is considered in a way that also takes into account some other parts of Mozart's works, I am convinced that neither he, nor himself, nor his neighbor is diminished or prejudiced. On the contrary, one will have the opportunity to rejoice that the true power of music is exhausted in expressing itself in the music of Mozart". Or more briefly: "Praeterea censeo that Mozart is the greatest of all classical authors, that his Don Giovanni deserves the highest place among all classical works".

... while remaining firm that all this is absolutely debatable - without wanting to take anything away from the greatness and beauty of Don Giovanni naturally - starting above all from the phrase That Mozart reaches where others do not, after all, is nothing new, to end on the fact that Mozart is the greatest of all classical authors.

I think that Kierkegaard's assertions should be contextualized within his philosophy; by doing so, the nature of his absolutes will become more understandable, particularly regarding the references to classicism and the concept of sensuality (speaking of Don Giovanni).

Someone else will find perfection in Rossini

Frank wrote:

Will anyone else find perfection in Rossini

I don't have the exact phrase at hand, but Hegel, regarding Rossini and Mozart, used to say that—perhaps due to his old age and the dulling of the senses it often causes—he much preferred Rossini's Figaro to Mozart's.

Like him, I think in the same way, and since I cannot use old age as an excuse, I can always hide behind my enormous musical ignorance.

The fact is that, from my point of view, the Pesarese [Rossini] composed many theatrical masterpieces, far more than those composed by the Salzburg native, of whom—net of certain parts in some works—I find absolutely genius only Don Giovanni and The Marriage of Figaro.

I think that if we let children—and not just them—listen to much of Rossini's music, probably many of those children would listen to more art music in general when they grow up.

Mozart is certainly a genius of the Classical period, but Rossini is equally so.

Hegel 

Open content (youtube)

Open content (youtube)

Mozart's "natural" composition should also be taken into consideration.

Aside from the high frequencies that Mozart has always worked with since he was very small (and here I would say that children's appreciation is fully justified, let us remember that children scream and emit natural sounds that they will no longer produce as adults), beyond this, Mozart's music is truly composed of a natural flowing of sounds; I believe this aspect can be attributed to its simplified enjoyment for everyone.

In any case, I was trained on Mozart but I love Beethoven very much, like others do.

For the sake of the record, I could place a golden crown on what Simone has stated. Machiavelli... "the end justifies the means".