Yamaha SE series upright

The Yamaha S series is a special series. It costs a bit more... Bösendorfer strings...???? Strings replaced? Strings have well-defined brands and standards (Roslau blue, Paulello....etc.). Abel hammers. Unless it's something new, I don't recall Abel hammers being installed by Yamaha, as they install their own. Perhaps they were replaced? But in any case, it's fine and should sound better with Abel (suitable for Yamaha!). It's fine. It could be that it has been refurbished, but if well done, Ok. I wouldn't exchange it for a 118 Krauss (R 2 with fake double repetition)

Unfortunately, 10,000 euros can be spent. 13,000 seems like a lot to me. New? List price?

Nothing is falling apart. The U3 is praised because it has an excellent quality/price ratio.

The Seiler upright sounds very good. Ibach too, but always upright. Blüthner upright and Schimmel are top-tier. But in any case, you are already choosing a good instrument. The important thing is how it is maintained and prepared!!!!! Humidity is important.

Let me know

Paolo

Hi Paolo, the Yamaha SE 132 was a *NEW* piano, still cellophane-wrapped to be clear, at an official Yamaha dealer (who had the entire series). The seller explained to me that the SE series is the top of the line for Yamaha uprights, produced specifically to satisfy European tastes (hence the European sound that I liked), and the E stands for "Europe". It is made in a semi-artisanal way and goes through the same technicians who care for the CFX grand series, to be clear. The seller, who seemed very competent to me, spoke of a part made by Bösendorfer (not the strings, but an important steel part that Yamaha buys specifically from Bösendorfer, I don't remember the terminology), Renner hammers (I got confused before, not Abel, but Renner) and a soundboard made in Europe. The piano leaves the factory like this, no replacements, no interventions. The list price is 14-something thousand + VAT, the shopkeeper would give it to me for 13,000 discounted.

In the same shop, there were also two used Schimmels, but in my opinion, when talking about used instruments, the wear and tear of the various parts and how much the instrument has been used matters immensely. Among all the German used ones, the one that sounded best was the Krauss. The two Schimmels sounded quite "used", even if with a nice timbre; the Krauss seemed as if it had never been played. In fact, in the same shop, there were two identical Krausses, but one was a bit clattery and the other perfect; evidently, they had stepped on the first one a bit more. The action of the used Germans was less precise than the recent Yamaha action, there's no way around it. So I think that, at least with used instruments, rather than the brand, you need to try the individual specimen and see if it satisfies you. Am I right?

The U3 will have a good quality/price ratio, but it still costs 8,000 euros, which is not 1,000 euros. And I can't bring myself to spend 8,000 euros for a sound that doesn't make me fall in love. I am talking about a clean sound but far too neutral, poor in harmonics. And I say this again. By the way, I had the good fortune of trying new and refurbished Yamahas side by side and the difference is certainly felt, even if they were refurbished in Japan by the parent company with a certificate. I will never buy a refurbished one.

The only thing that scares me about German used pianos is age. Don't they say that an old piano is still an old piano, that over time pianos get worse, that the soundboard loses its tension, etc.? I mean, I am 30 years old and I want a piano to play on for quite a while, not a nice old piano that abandons me in 5 years... what do you think?

A piano doesn't last five years! The sinking of the bridges, assuming it happens, can occur after many years. The quality of materials matters and therefore the price corresponds.

You never know... just like with houses. Some of us think about a forever home and then change three of them!. It may be that in a few years you fall in love with a better instrument.....The Yamaha is very sellable. It depends on tastes. The sound, however, depends on the regulation and tuning. Comparison is difficult in a shop, because perhaps one is not tuned and regulated and the other is, so the second appears better. There is a certain margin of appreciation. The SE is a 132 and it is a good instrument.

Ah I believe it, for 14000 euros it would only be missing that it wasn't good! Thanks anyway Paolo for the opinions!

Paolo, regarding Krauss, I would like to ask your opinion. I found two 118 R2 upright models of the same age, both with Renner action. The differences are as follows:

1. The first has the two classic additional "legs" that support the keyboard; the second does not.

2. The first has the inside of the hammers in red felt and the outside in white felt; the second has hammers with only white felt.

What is the difference between the two models? Which one is better? Thank you.

Dear Andreax, I am intruding and I take the liberty of telling you what Paolo thinks, though he only alludes to it wisely: the Krauss is certainly a piano with refined materials, a beautiful design and all, but that devilish R2 action that simulates a grand is a madness that is surely difficult to regulate; and believe me, when he says it as a technician, he is skilled—not all technicians have the expertise and patience to regulate the most unpleasant uprights like that one..

P.S. I am speaking with firsthand knowledge; my cousin owns one and even though the hammer felt is still in perfect condition after 19 years, everything needs regulating. It is frustrating to play because you can tell it could give you more, but it just can't. Then, if you know a skilled tuner whom you trust blindly, that is a different story altogether.

Hi Andry, thanks for the answer. And what do you think about the message above instead?

Look, I would advise great patience, and certainly the path of a parlor grand piano could be a valid hypothesis; however, you need to have a lot of patience with pianos. They all seem to be different because it is difficult to find them in the same condition—the same 'shrink-wrapped' new pianos spend years inside shops, and sellers often leave them out of tune because it is a complex market full of non-experts for whom tuning them every year would be an unnecessary expense and... You must decide whether to look for a piano or a tuner; in the first case, it is fine to buy a new Yamaha piano, which if we don't like it, is resalable and holds its price. If instead you want to make music with great attention to sound quality, you have to spend more time, but you will find an opportunity from a private individual or a shop... at that point, you must find a trusted tuner/repairman.

So, if you don't have time, buy a new Kawai or Yamaha, whichever convinces you most; if you do have time, invest it, watch Paolo's video tutorials on piano mechanics, and look for a nice German/French one or a beautiful used Steinway! The brand gives a clue, but it is the condition that makes the difference!

Wise words, friend Andry! I also thank you for the esteem. With Andry, we restored one of his high-quality uprights and fine-tuned a Gaveau grand piano that is also his. Therefore, we were able to exchange many impressions on these topics in person and we debated extensively.

What Andry says is correct. Without discrediting Krauss, which is always a great manufacturing House, the R2 actually does not suit my tastes. We must consider that the upright piano, in itself, is already aided in its "vertical" movement by a series of springs that sometimes play a leading role in the smoothness of the action. Even the damper springs can contribute, if too robust, to compromising the fluidity of the touch. This is the case with some Schulze Polmann and/or even some Schimmel.

Now, the R2 is based on a small additional spring that helps, in two words, the escapement lever to return to position. One extra spring. That's all.

I have sometimes tried uprights that work so well that.... I would have bought them just to play them. At the Steinway House in Frankfurt, they have an upright that is a dream. Of course, it costs... 37,000.00 Euro! However, we must observe that there are no additional "gadgets" helping the responsiveness of this splendid instrument.

Another correct thing Andry says (and here comes the coffee with cream paid for by HIM at the "Pozzo") is that it is "the conditions" that make the difference! We must keep in mind that to judge instruments in comparison, they must be fine-tuned beforehand! I say this because one can often be deceived by a piano that is so-and-so well prepared, compared to a great Brand that is not cared for at all... or poorly prepared!. Catalano, a man of banal maxims, at Renzo Arbore's "Indietro tutta" broadcast (stuff from the past....) would have said: "It is better to have a well-prepared piano that sounds good than an unregulated and out-of-tune one that sounds terrible" (after this... I will probably be banned!!!!!)

Thank you Paolo and Andry, everything is very clear. Paolo, regarding the difference between the two Krauss models I was describing in the message above, what could you tell me?

They are basically the same. Assuming that the hammers of one of the two have not been replaced. In reality, some brands install hammers with or without felt. There is not much difference. The important thing is the correct drilling and the shape of the hammers. With legs or without depends on the aesthetic model.

Andry wrote:

On 9/4/2015 at 11:05, Andry said:

Dear Andreax, I'm stepping in and I take the liberty of telling you what Paolo also thinks, but wisely only hints at; the Krauss is certainly a piano with refined materials, a beautiful design and all, but that devilish R2 action that simulates a grand is a madness that is surely difficult to regulate, and believe me, when he says it as a technician, he is skilled; not all technicians have the competence and patience to regulate the most unpleasant uprights like that one...

P.S. I speak with firsthand knowledge; my cousin owns one and even though the hammer felt is still in perfect condition after 19 years, everything needs regulating; it's frustrating to play because you can tell it could give you more, but it just can't. Then, if you know a skilled tuner whom you trust blindly, it's a different story altogether.

The metal strip clips are difficult to register with the right tension!