L. V. Beethoven

6 bagatelles of Opus 126

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Frank

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Opening post by Frank

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Daniele's suggestion deserves a topic

danielescarpetti wrote:

the composer from Bonn, as he composed Bagatelles that are by far much more important and by far much "more beautiful". To such an extent that they can be considered as a whole a true Beethovenian peak of his final years.
You will have understood that I am referring to the series of 6 bagatelles from Opus 126, which you certainly know very well and which I warmly invite you to make your source of study and discussion, rather than this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75i53JScg14

I can share an experience of my own: when I was little and there was no internet yet and I depended on the lips of my piano teacher, I didn't know about the existence of this work.

Beethoven really moved me, and when I went to Ricordi (or to the musical messengers, which once dealt with classical music in a more structured way), I took the opportunity to spy on scores from the various "small boxes" (who has been there knows). At one point, I stumbled upon the score of the work in question mentioned by Daniele...
..after skimming through several pages, I decided it had to be mine; I bought the score and a CD... with the "solemn" commitment that sooner or later I would study them.

"Good old days"; now go on YouTube and in 3 minutes you can get a decent idea of how they sound.

Jokes aside, since I noticed that (Daniele) is very passionate about this matter, why don't you tell us your point of view?

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Reply 4 by LucaCavaliere

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Yes, it's true: a listening guide is always useful.

But the one you linked - excuse me - doesn't seem to me like a listening... guide.

sincerely, I got the impression that it had to reach a certain number of characters to write something in the program notes.

I don't overrate Glenn Gould, but his words: «the bagatelles of op. 126 are the masterpieces of the late period seen through an inverted telescope» are extremely more stimulating as an invitation to listen

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Reply 5 by Pio

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To me it seems like a listening guide .. what is missing Luca?

Bagatelles for piano, op. 126

Music:Ludwig van Beethoven

Andante con moto, in G major

Allegro, in G minor

Andante cantabile e grazioso, in Eb major

Presto, in B minor

Quasi Allegretto, in G major

Presto; Andante amabile e con moto, in Eb major

Instrumentation:piano

Composition:1823 - 1824

Edition:Schott, Mainz 1825

Listening Guide

Anyone who even distractedly glances at the list of compositions published by Beethoven immediately notices the alternation of works with an opus number and works without an opus number, an alternation that was very frequent in the late 1700s and which then became rare, until disappearing completely in the final years. Now, what was the purpose of the opus number in Beethoven's time?

Etc.

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Reply 8 by Frank

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A bit of a spicy question: talking about music through a listening guide ...ok, but towards which "target" and with what musical skills?

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Reply 9 by Terenzio

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I feel called upon since reference is made to content from my site, and I want to take this opportunity to illustrate its spirit.

I should preface that I am not a musician or a musicologist, but merely a retired former sales agent with a passion for classical music. The site was born to share the music I assemble between keyboard and computer, starting from the full score sheet music of symphonies (I learned to play poorly by attending evening courses).

The site, much to my amazement, was an immediate success, and I was thinking about how to develop it when I asked myself:

How can a cashier at a bar in Taranto (or in any town in the Italian provinces) who happens to get her hands on a CD with a Mozart symphony satisfy her curiosity to know what that KV appearing in the title is?

From this came the idea of including composer catalogs (which are sparsely present on the Internet and absolutely absent in Italian), enriching them with all the information I think might be of interest (tempi, instrumentation, premieres, etc.).

The next step was listening guides (always thinking of the cashier from Taranto). There is almost nothing on the market, except for the old Manzoni and the current Zecchini Guides which are too expensive (to buy the 4 current volumes that cover only some aspects of classical music, it costs almost 200 euros); nothing else comes to mind.

I am not able to write these guides myself, but as a concert-goer, I have always looked with interest at the programs handed out, which, once their function is exhausted, end up forgotten on a library shelf; so I began photocopying them and uploading them to the site.

At first, Santa Cecilia looked at me with suspicion, but then we spoke and they gave me their authorization. Then the Filarmonica Romana made itself known—they have a small library but one full of history—saying: why Santa Cecilia yes and us no? Last month, I received authorization from La Scala in Milan!

Of course, concert programs are not always true listening guides. You sometimes find texts that list compositions for three pages (the composer wrote 5 symphonies and down goes the list, 8 piano concertos listed, and so on) and then dismiss the piece in question with five final lines, but I think it is better to have a little than nothing, and I can always replace them when I find better ones. Another problem is the language they use, which is not always accessible to everyone, and for this reason, I have started inserting a simple glossary into the pages, which will also grow over time.

All of this is aimed, as I have already said, at those who do not have the cultural or practical means to access this information. The number of site visitors (about 1,700/day) and the messages I receive reassure me in my choices. When I then discover that some important figures from the world of Classical Music use my site to find information on the fly, it makes me a little proud.

Few people have the time and means to frequent libraries, but as someone supported by the INPS (social security), I have the time to do so and I enjoy it too.

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Reply 10 by danielescarpetti

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Frank wrote:

Joking aside, since I noticed that (Daniele) is very charged on this issue, why don't you tell us your point of view?

Good morning Frank and good morning to everyone!

I am getting to my opinion, have a little patience and I will get there, by tomorrow or perhaps even this evening if I can.

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Reply 11 by RedScharlach

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Terenzio wrote:

Few have the time and means to frequent libraries, but as someone supported by Inps, I have the time to do it and I even enjoy it.

Great!!

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Reply 12 by Frank

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Since INPS is funded by those who pay taxes by paying contributions (and I am one of them), I am glad that among the ranks there are "employees" like Terenzio

Since I don't know how many among the younger generation will be able to benefit from such a privilege, but surely many of them are contributing.

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Reply 13 by Frank

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danielescarpetti wrote:

I'll give you my thoughts, have a little patience and I'll get there, by tomorrow or perhaps even this evening if I can.

There's no rush... but before retirement though

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Reply 14 by LucaCavaliere

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Frank wrote:

A bit of a spicy question: talking about music through a listening guide ...ok, but towards which "target" and with what musical skills?

Sorry Frank: the musical skills... of the target... or of the writer? I think you mean that of the target...

Spontaneous answer: the widest possible target, right?... In the spirit of leaving no one behind (like when walking in the mountains: the group's pace must be that of the slowest). Who is the slowest - the novice - in a concert hall that holds two thousand people? There he is!... I would think of him when writing a listening guide.

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Reply 15 by LucaCavaliere

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Terenzio wrote:

When I then discover that some important figures from the world of Classical Music use my site to find some information on the fly, it makes me feel a little proud.

Hi Terenzio

i am not a famous figure, but it has been at least two years that I have been drawing pleasure from your site, which I consider a great mine. Thanks again!

Terenzio wrote:

Of course, concert programs are not always true listening guides. It happens to find texts that list compositions for three pages (the composer wrote 5 symphonies and so on, 8 piano concertos listed and so forth) and then they dismiss the piece in question with five final lines.

that is what makes me a little angry.

Terenzio wrote:

but I think it's better to have a little than nothing, and then I can always replace them when I find better ones.

I understand. I keep them all myself.

I also keep the one that made me think to myself "imagine if someone who has never heard the Sinfonia Italiana has to read something like this..."

To clarify (with everyone): some historical and biographical information, as well as stylistic derivation, I always enjoy reading in the preambles of a listening guide. I also find it necessary to provide it. However, after that (shall we say 50%?), I would like us to move on to talking, not 'about music', but about that specific work.

Often it is not easy.

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Reply 17 by Frank

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LucaCavaliere wrote:

the widest possible target, right?

I don't know, but I propose an experiment to you. I always wonder if I had to write a listening guide for one of my own pieces, what I would write...

Try writing your own listening guide for the Bagatelles in question, omitting any background information... we all know who Beethoven is anyway; focus only on the work and don't forget to think about the widest possible target... maybe something interesting will come out and Terenzio will ask you for the rights

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Reply 18 by danielescarpetti

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Restlessness: or Beethoven, Gould and Opus 126

Restlessness!

Probably the things that connect Beethoven's life with a common thread can be many, but surely restlessness has an absolutely central role in the composer's entire life, from his early years in Bonn until his death on March 26, 1826.

Restlessness towards his family - I always wonder why, in 1803, he had only the portrait of his grandfather Ludvig senior, whom he had just met, sent to Vienna (who died in 1773), and not also that of his "beloved mother"! - for whom he always had to take responsibility. Restlessness towards his Bonn; too narrow for his ambitions and to which he never returned. Restlessness towards his teachers, whom he felt were limited. Restlessness towards the nobility, from whom, however, he could not do without in order to live. Restlessness towards the bourgeoisie: "plebeian mass". Restlessness towards an ungrateful fate that he would have wanted to "take by the neck". Restlessness towards women, from whom, however, he could not do without...! A life constantly accompanied by the most ungrateful dualism: Necessity and Free Will, which always conditioned him.

But the two forms of restlessness of interest here were musical ones.

The first was towards the sonata form, with which he waged a very hard struggle from his earliest works and which led to extreme consequences – that of no return - with his final Piano Sonatas, and in particular with Opus 111—the one about which Thomas Mann said in his "Doktor Faustus": "(...) here the sonata ended, here it had fulfilled its mission, touched the goal beyond which it was impossible to go, here it annulled itself and took its leave (...) a farewell as great as the entire composition, the farewell of the Sonata."

The second musical restlessness of Beethoven was... towards Beethoven himself.

Let's think about it for a moment; this was not always the attitude the composer had toward his music: has the feeling of not yet having completed his task of "living for my art" existed since the time of the "Heiligenstadt Testament"? And therefore, does this not translate into a restlessness towards what he had already composed and a duty to always go further?

It is in this context of the discussion that the series of "Bagatelles Opus 126," which the giant from Bonn composed between the end of 1823 and February 1824 on the soil of Vienna, should be inserted. In fact, it was in letter no. 1783 of February 24, 1824, that Beethoven named them for the first time, requesting their publication from the publisher Heinrich Albert Probst in Leipzig.

These Bagatelles are Beethoven's last piano work – apart from some sketches that remained so – and it is important to ask why, after the great previous Sonatas, the composer only wrote these which, without a doubt, as he himself wrote in his letter 1901 of November 23, 1824, are: "(...) small pieces for solo piano, some of which are very elaborate and certainly the best I have written in this genre".

Surely, precisely for the reason cited by Thomas Mann, it was impossible for Beethoven to go beyond the Sonatas; thus, only the possibility remained to create these small, gigantic jewels. Jewels that were part of his final compositional season, when, in an impulse of restlessness, "(...) in the contemplative stasis of the combinatorial play of counterpoint of the last Sonatas (or the last Quartets); in that contestation of the dramatic linearity of musical discourse that the Variations always were for him" (Guido Salvetti), he turned to them.

For the first time – as was the case for the series of Lieder "" (An die ferne Geliebte) Opus 98 of 1816 – Beethoven assigned a cyclical series to these Bagatelles which, as happened with his entire late production, were misunderstood in his time. However, they were well understood by Robert Schumann; let us think only of the series "" and "". Refined pages, of a dazzling visionary quality, are united by the reasoned programming of tonalities: G+ lyrical, in the "Andante con moto compiacevole" of the first; G- in the sharp "Allegro" of the second; Eb+ in the "Andante cantabile e grazioso" of the third, where a first part of choral writing is followed by a sort of very ornamental variation; B- in the "Presto" of the fourth, determined but softened by an episode in musette form; G+ in the fifth "Quasi allegretto," intrinsic with sweet delicacy; Eb+, finally, in the sixth "Presto – Andante amabile e con moto," where after a very brief and whimsical "Presto," there is an "Andante" rich in expressive contrasts.

In the discourse concerning the "Bagatelles Opus 126" and that relating to restlessness, the figure of Glenn Gould fits in fully.

Glenn Gould was a great pianist who, it is said, was either loved to madness or [was]"},

Absolutely Glenn Gould. I think that even if one does not agree, one cannot deny his absolute genius in interpreting, first and foremost, the music of his favorite Johann Sebastian Bach, but also in general all the music he approached.

Glenn Gould's relationship with Mozart's music was anything but positive, and many wish it had been the same with Beethoven.

I think instead, as Guido Salvetti states: «(...) Between the two, relationships were tense: Glenn Gould did not forgive Beethoven for being Beethoven and, as such, for having written the exact opposite of that music "without beginning and without end, without true tensions and true resolutions" that Gould dreamed of. On the contrary, Beethoven was the champion of the very idea of "beginning," even as the genesis of the Cosmos from Chaos, and of "end" as a utopian message of the victory of Reason; and the tension-resolution play is the only possible path, for Beethoven, that can guarantee the relationship between art and life, between the artist and humanity.

Glenn Gould, hearing these things, is suffering: for him music must not be this entanglement—for him spurious to the point of indecency—of sound and ideology. And Beethoven, more than anyone, needs help to redeem himself: Beethoven needs Gould, and Gould in helping him, is well aware of performing a gesture of love (...)»."

Love and intolerance were thus what drove Gould to interpret Beethoven, that same love and intolerance that Beethoven had for himself.

This is why the Bagatelles, these jewels that certainly did not have the "claim" to fulfill an ideal, that had no beginning and no end, were preferred by Gould "as a sign of a different Beethoven."

And so let us compare these Bagatelles in the hands of pianists like

and

in the hands of

. In the first, the dilation of duration is already impressive, more than a minute in Gould's compared to Pollini's. But then, listening to it! Does it not seem more like being in the presence of a Bachian prelude rather than a Beethovenian bagatelle? Genius from my point of view!

Contrary to the first, the second in Gould becomes very fast compared to Pollini, granting him that lost minute, and the central moment of tenderness has almost entirely disappeared.

With the third, Gould slows down the tempos again compared to Pollini. But it is the ornamentations that are significantly enriched by an incomparable pianistic touch.

Dilation also in the fourth, where one returns to a marked and compact interpretation like in the second and, as always, not attentive to softenings.

The fifth, which has the delicate movements of a barcarolle, is followed by Gould in an extraordinary way in its abstract dissolution, which leads it to lose the connotation of song and dance.

The sixth, the most visionary of all six bagatelles, in its internal continuous laceration, in its hanging between the popular and the sublime, finds in Gould a cold and perfect performer; perhaps in this one, the Canadian pianist feels most at ease: nothing has been traced, the goal has not been marked.

Intolerance!

Yes, there are many reasons that lead me to love Beethoven above any other composer: the intolerance that so much in common with me is one of them.

Ps: the interpretations by Pollini and Gould are behind their names, just click there.

nonno Ludvigforma-sonataThomas MannDoktor FaustusTestamento di HeiglnstadtGuido SalvettiRobert Schumannmusette;Glenn GouldJohann Sebastian BachMozart

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Reply 19 by RedScharlach

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danielescarpetti wrote:

But the two intolerances that interest us here were musical ones.

The first towards sonata form, with which he waged a very hard struggle from his earliest works ...

I do not doubt that Beethoven was an "intolerant type," and in any case, I would not know how to pronounce myself on this side of his character. But does the thesis of his intolerance towards sonata form have any serious critical foundation? Because rather than "intolerance," it seems to me that one could speak of a "love affair lasting a lifetime," if you will allow me the metaphor!

forma-sonata

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Reply 20 by LucaCavaliere

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Frank wrote:

I don't know, but I propose an experiment to you. I always wonder if I had to write a listening guide for one of my pieces, what I would write...

Try writing your own listening guide for the Bagatelles in question, omitting any peripheral information...

Regarding one of my pieces (if I were a composer), I would never write a listening guide. Let others write them! I have already written the piece (and that is no small feat).

As for the proposal that I write one (I was expecting it)... I would like to, but I feel a bit like resting (compared to writing).

Five days ago, I finished something that kept me busy for two months. If anyone is interested, I have one "in storage" regarding the Ninth Symphony that I wrote a year ago for a target audience around 10-12 years old. And I did not omit peripheral information before getting to the heart of it.

On the Bagatelles op. 126, I read in Daniele's post above, ideas around "visionary nature," "internal lacerations," "unmarked goals"...

I think I can rest easy.

Anyway, if I were to write something (before retirement!), I would focus on 'pleasant,' 'amiable' (and «angenehmere» from the Ode to Joy comes to mind...)"}

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