Analysis

to identify a key, a cadence on the I is not necessary; a II-V is enough, as the V contains the tritone that identifies two keys; in this case, the tritone consists of the notes G and Db. This tritone possesses two possible cadences, one in D maj and the other in Ab maj; it is the II that directs us toward the desired cadence. Therefore, we have two possibilities offered by the G-Db tritone: E-7-A7-D and Bb-7-Eb7-A.

modale wrote:

to identify a key, a cadence on the I is not necessary; a II-V is enough, since the V contains the tritone that identifies two keys; in this case, the tritone consists of the notes G and Db.

So in a progression, is every cycle a modulation?

I am asking because modulation is a procedure that involves not only touching two chords of a certain key ... but also staying there and "confirming it", otherwise, as the classics would say, it is merely a tonicization.

I believe that terminology is important, but even more important is "the concept"; if we are in the key of Fmaj and for two measures we go into the key of Ab, there is a change of key, that is what matters; then the fact that it is confirmed gives it the term modulation, if it is not confirmed...........What interests us is that during the performance of the theme and especially during improvisation, at that point we must move from the key of F to that of Ab.

modale wrote:

I believe that terminology is important, but even more important is "the concept"

Well, in tonal music, as in modal music and in all things, there are rules and consequently a terminology that must be used with precision, to avoid misunderstandings.

If in a piece built on D Dorian I told you that we are in "C major key," it wouldn't matter; you would rightfully stop speaking to me (and rightly so).

JazzMania wrote:

So, in a progression, is every turn a modulation?

I am asking because modulation is a process that involves not only touching two chords of a certain key ... but also staying there and "confirming it", otherwise, as the classics would say, it is merely a tonicization.

...but modulating progression exists, how do you fit it into the discussion?

AbateFaria wrote:

...but there is the modulating progression, how do you fit it into the discussion?

a modulating progression modulates by definition, by default :D

rather, there is another snag regarding terminology: Americans use the term 'progression' to mean a sequence of chords, like a cadence; it doesn't have the same meaning as it does in our parts.

No, sorry. Modulating doesn't mean that it modulates into a different key every time; it has a very precise direction and, upon its conclusion, arrives at a key that will then be confirmed

Yes yes, of course. I meant to say that it actually involves a modulation, not, for example, like a chain of secondary dominants that leads back to the home key. ;-)

What it seemed to me he was saying was modal

The thing is a bit controversial: if we say that every time we encounter chords foreign to the key we go into another "key", then secondary dominants and modal interchanges are also modulations...

I think I understand what he meant by modal, i.e., that beyond the analysis, in practice, if in C major we find an Am7 D7, we play it thinking of a ii-V of G, whatever the harmonic function may be in that context.

However, the usefulness of analysis and making a distinction between a modulation and a substitution in some cases helps us establish the choice of the most appropriate notes.

E.g.: Pink Panther: Am F7 Am. If we consider the F7 extracted from the context and play any scale compatible with a V, strange things happen; try putting a superlocrian on it or using it on a tritone substitution...

Then, of course, no one is stopping you from doing it; Herbie Hancock plays practically any note from the chromatic scale over an Amaj7 and it sounds divine, but at that point you are relying solely on your ear and talent, and any rule becomes useless.

It is no coincidence that in the two measures where The days of wine and roses modulates to A-flat, the A natural continuously appears... ;-)

Guys, when you modulate, you go into another key and stay there... otherwise it isn't a modulation. Modulation, which someone called "temporary," is nothing more than a tonicization.

Example:

V/II II V/V V I ... so, without making life complicated, in C: A7 D-7 D7 G7 C we are in the same key; it's not that we go to D-, then to G, etc.

Different would be always in C: A7 D-7 D7 G7 E7 A-7 A7 D7 G

At a certain point we are in G

DrJellyfish wrote:

if in C major we find an A-7 D7, we play it thinking nonetheless of a G II V, whatever the harmonic function may be in that context.

Exactly! It is clearly the opposite case to A7 D-7

I would add a personal observation: the opinion I formed while chatting with Modale (don't hate me, Moda') is that he neglects, perhaps deliberately, some rules of tonal harmony. Considering the scale-chord relationship as a priority over context works for the modal approach, but if on a F major II V I you tell me that on G-7 you use G dorian rather than F major, I find it inaccurate; essentially, you'll say it's the same thing, right? But what if I told you that on 'So What' one uses C major and Db major scales? Returning to the point that even a II degree in a Mozart sonata uses the Dorian mode... The fact is that this double approach to a decidedly tonal piece can generate confusion.

Frank wrote:

Exactly! It is clearly the opposite case to A7 D-7

However, I must say that with the same chord sequence, from a melodic point of view, I think differently about an A-7 D7 followed by D-7 G7 C∆ compared to an A-7 D7 followed by G∆...

Of course

In the first case II V I of C

In the second case II V of G

But where is the equality of the chords?

A-7 D7...

DrJellyfish wrote:

A-7 D7...

Ah, I hadn't understood. You meant:

A-7 D7 D-7 G7 C∆

e

A-7 D7 G∆...

How do you analyze the first progression?

wait, let me explain:

the two sequences would be

A-7 D7 D-7 G7 C♠

and

A-7 D7 G♠

In the first one, the II V is indeed in G major, but I don't see a modulation, perhaps a secondary dominant instead.