L. V. Beethoven

BeeThOven Festival

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Azzurro

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Opening post by Azzurro

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For the celebrations of Turin's patron saint, San Giovanni, a large free concert has been organized in the living room of Turin, Piazza San Carlo. Over four evenings, Beethoven's nine symphonies will be performed by the Orchestra Sinfonica Nazionale della Rai, conducted by Maestro Juraj Valuha.

The saga began last Monday (June 24 at 9:00 PM) with the Ninth Symphony. Among other things, at the end, the audience moved to the banks of the Po to watch the traditional fireworks display.

The other appointments, also at 9:00 PM, are (apart from today) Tuesday the 26th, as well as Friday the 28th and Sunday the 30th.

On the evenings of June 27 and 29, compositions for solo instruments will be performed by the Orchestra Filarmonica di Torino with high-caliber musical guests.

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Reply 3 by danielescarpetti

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I heard the advertisement on Radio tre, besides the symphonies, all the concerts and sonatas.

Not bad indeed. I only hope that since it is the Rai symphony orchestra, Radio tre, in recorded broadcast, will at least transmit something.

Once again I wonder - an absolutely rhetorical question - why Beethoven. Why him, yet again and always?

:wub: :wub:

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Reply 5 by danielescarpetti

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Yes, of course, because it "works"! But why does it work? Why is it that despite the thousands upon thousands of times those symphonies have been recorded or performed, the audience always wants those?

Why is it that every time Beethoven is listened to, one always tries to grasp something unheard, something unprecedented?

Why? And above all, why does this not happen for any other composer?

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Reply 6 by Eagle

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Jazz lovers, for example, are drawn to Bach rather than Beethoven... perhaps it is linked to listener niches?

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Reply 7 by micamahler

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But then it's not true, every year in Turin they hold a festival dedicated to Mozart if anything, never one for Beethoven as far as I know!

"Why is it that every time Beethoven is listened to, one always tries to grasp something unheard of, something unprecedented?

Why? And above all, why does this not happen for any other composer?"

Personal opinion, I would say... You know how many could say the same about Bach, Stravinsky, Chopin, Mahler, Ligeti or whoever (Ciurlionis!)

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Reply 8 by RedScharlach

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danielescarpetti wrote:

But why does it work? Why, despite the thousands upon thousands of times those symphonies have been recorded or played, does the audience always want those?

Because re-listening is easier than listening.

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Reply 9 by danielescarpetti

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My guys, let's try to understand each other because, as often happens in forums, it always seems impossible.

I started from Frank's answer-question: because it pulls!

I am not asking whether you go to this or that festival instead.

I am talking about a fact: the recordings and concerts of Beethoven are unsurpassed, Mozart included! This is a fact, whether one likes it or not.

A Mozart festival is being held in Turin! Okay, but he is the only composer who, for free, like Beethoven's concerts, can fill that square. I doubt Bach would succeed, even though the undersigned would certainly go more willingly to Bach's than to Mozart's.

Why is re-listening easier?

True, but why especially Beethoven, I repeat?

Finally, I would be truly curious to see the square in Turin where for 7 days they offer for free, not Ciurlionis' music, but Ligeti or Stravinsky. Let's see how many people there are?

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Reply 11 by thallo

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danielescarpetti wrote:

I am talking about a fact: Beethoven's recordings and concerts are unsurpassed, Mozart included! This is a fact, whether you like it or not.

unsurpassed in what sense? In the sense that they have had greater sales success in history? Or that they are qualitatively better?

They are holding a Mozart festival in Turin! Okay, but he is the only composer who, for free, like Beethoven's concerts are, can fill that square. I doubt Bach could do it, even though the undersigned would certainly go more willingly to Bach's than to Mozart's.

first step: Beethoven fills the halls. I agree.

Why is re-listening easier?

True, but why especially Beethoven, I repeat?

I would finally be truly curious to see the square in Turin where for 7 days they offer for free, not Ciurlionis' music, but Ligeti or Stravinsky. Let's see how many people are there?

and here I was expecting, in a certain sense, step two. He fills the halls and so we must think that it is "pop" music, popular, popularly known. Your second step, however, is not there. You continue to re-pose the question as if it were rhetorical. But in my opinion, it isn't rhetorical. Moreover, some rhetorical questions make me uncomfortable, because a rhetorical question tries to provoke consensus in the listener; it is a means of taking the opinions of the speaker for granted.

I might be wrong, but the rhetorical answer to Daniele's rhetorical question should be "because Beethoven is better". Setting aside the discussion about best and worst, which is difficult to address and, as we know, leads us to digital brawls, I offer other very, very, very simple reasons:

1) Beethoven is repertoire. Any orchestra that respects itself already has it ready. Therefore, in terms of price lists, it is more convenient (read: it requires fewer rehearsals);

2) Beethoven is known by the general public, even if, often, only by name. The strength of his name, however, is great, at least from an advertising point of view;

2 bis) he is not the only one known, but he is the only very well-known one, and part of the repertoire, for whom a complete symphonic cycle can be produced without excessive production efforts. You cannot do a complete cycle of anything by Bach, and orchestras do not have it in their repertoire. No one would care about complete cycles of Schumann or Schubert, alas.

3) Beethoven is not what is done most. If we limit ourselves to the orchestra, then perhaps yes, but I remind you that the monopoly on "village fair" music is firmly held by the national-populist Peppino Verdi. Because he was on the thousand-lire note.

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Reply 12 by danielescarpetti

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Of course they have had greater success, not so much in sales, but in recordings and performances. I am not talking about quality: my argument is not tied to a discussion of taste - as I have already said - but to a matter of fact.

The second step I take for granted: Beethoven has succeeded more than others in becoming popular or "pop," something that others have failed to do - except in part Mozart - and the question continues to be: why?

Isn't Beethoven the one played most in Italy? That's true! But in the world? He is surpassed only by the Beatles... and perhaps by Mozart (but I am not so sure).

Micamahler... keep playing at not understanding me!

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Reply 13 by thallo

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Have Beethoven's CDs sold more? Show the data :-)

Surpassed only by the Beatles? Show the data!

I keep saying that, in Italy, more Verdi is played

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Reply 14 by LucaCavaliere

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Why?... Because it's better. Or 'er mejo' if you want [personal opinion, eh!]

ed that's why it works, because it's pop, it's popular, it's well-known, they already have it in their repertoire, it is listened to, it is re-listened to, it is well-known, they already have it in their repertoire, that's why it works...

[personal opinion alongside millions of other personal opinions]

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Reply 15 by RedScharlach

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LucaCavaliere wrote:

Why?... Because it's better. Or ‘er mejo’ if you want [personal opinion, eh!]

Great!

... and so?

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Reply 16 by LucaCavaliere

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And so... what I wrote afterwards.

Should I rewrite it?... and that's why (read: 'and so') it pulls, it's pop....

(besides, these aren't even things written by me: I only copied/pasted them [sharing them] from previous posts).

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Reply 17 by RedScharlach

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I meant to say: okay, Beethoven is the best, I gladly concede that to you (although, staying within the realm of personal taste, I have a slight preference for Bach).

Once that has been established, what are we supposed to do? Shall we compile a ranking of composers, 1st place Ludwig van Beethoven, 2nd place Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, etc., etc...?

To tell the truth, it seems like a lot of bar talk to me. Nothing against it, mind you! But one shouldn't then expect them to have any value as technical, aesthetic, or historiographical arguments...

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Reply 18 by LucaCavaliere

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I will gladly grant you that too: between Bach and Beethoven, I wouldn't be able to... prefer one over the other.

Once this has been established... we don't have to do anything.

io myself these days have been listening to and re-listening to the concerti grossi of Benedetto Marcello (of whom until six months ago I only knew his works for flute).

Regarding the value that these observations can have (all stemming from the statement that Beethoven "pulls"), I am very attracted to a discussion about music (about a musical work) in relation to the extent of its emotional resonance, even decades and decades after it was composed.

Regarding bar talk... even on that: I am glad you don't have «Nothing against it». Personally, often, regardless of enrichments or in-depth studies (which I have found anyway), even "musical bar" chatter pleases me in a forum.

Don't hate me, but a sports bar can be found anywhere within 100 m of my/your front door, whereas a musical bar.....

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Reply 19 by antares86

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LucaCavaliere wrote:

I will gladly grant you that too: between Bach and Beethoven, I wouldn't be able to... prefer one over the other.

Once this has been established... we don't have to do anything.

io myself these days have been listening to and re-listening to the concerti grossi of Benedetto Marcello (of whom until six months ago I only knew his works for flute).

Regarding the value that these observations can have (all stemming from the assertion that Beethoven "pulls") I am very attracted to a discussion about music (about a musical work) in relation to the extent of its emotional resonance, even decades and decades after it was composed.

Regarding bar talk... even on that: I'm glad you don't have «Nothing against it». Personally, often, regardless of enrichments or in-depth studies (which I have found anyway), even a "musical bar" chat pleases me in a forum.

Don't hate me, but a sports bar can be found anywhere within 100 m of my/your front door, whereas a musical bar.....

io have no doubts, Bach for life instead

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Reply 20 by thallo

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LucaCavaliere wrote:

i am very attracted to a discussion about music (on a
musical 'work') in relation to the extent of its emotional resonance, even decades and decades after it was composed.

emotional resonance.

I don't want to trivialize or sound accusatory, but around the corner looms the figure of Gigi D'Alessio ... who creates a lot of emotional resonance :-) it is complex to do, but one should find that limit, 그 argumentative nuance that allows us to say that Beethoven is liked by everyone, but in a different way than how Gigi D'Alessio is liked by everyone. In my opinion, Beethoven's success is not just emotional; it is a cultural brand that makes us feel more intelligent, even without venturing into the unknown. The effortless chic.

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