L. V. Beethoven

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Reply 41 by LucaCavaliere

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Frank wrote:

Shall we talk about some cantatas?

Yes yes . . . (always at the bar) . . . rather than talking, it is enough for me to mention: Wachet auf!!! BWV140.... the opening chorus always enthuses me. To the point where I cannot stay still. (ehm ehm ... Carl Richter above all)

Regarding your being far from classicism and Beethoven... fifteen years ago, between Bach and Beethoven, I would have answered "Bach! Without a doubt" (while always recognizing the value of Beethoven). Furthermore, I only listened to Baroque and pre-tonal. Now instead I am immersed in classicism and romanticism....

It goes a bit in waves. ... Don't you think so too?

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Reply 42 by GILDA

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ssssscusate ma la musica non è bella perché varia? E' cosi meraviglioso poter ascoltare Bach , Beethoven, Mozart senza per questo dover porsi il problema di chi tira di più? Ogni compositore ha lasciato un'impronta necessaria ed è bello poter avere queste diversità sennò sai che noia solo Beethoven!! Io per esempio a volte ( a seconda dei giorni e dell'umore ) ascolto uno o ascolto un altro a secondo di come mi gira.....confesso che quando sono incavolata metto la quinta di Beethoven e l'ascolto proprio con soddisfazione.

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Reply 44 by danielescarpetti

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But I completely agree with the comments made by Luca, Gilda, and Claudio. On the other hand, I also demonstrate this with the calendar, right?

In life, there are moments when one needs one kind of music more than another. One composer more than another. One genre more than another. One era more than another.

Personally, I can say that during the many moments of discouragement I have had to go through in my life, if it hadn't been for Beethoven, I don't know what I would have done. But this is absolutely subjective.

Beethoven has been a constant in my life from my earliest age. While others have known different seasons, Beethoven has always been present.

But, all of this—and I apologize for the insistence—continues to not answer the question. Because for example, at this moment to celebrate Abbado, on Rai 5, they are replaying the complete Beethoven symphonies with the Berliners from 2001. Someone will answer me that it was a great event. Agreed! But as it happens, when they came to Italy that year, they found nothing better than proposing the complete cycle of Beethoven's symphonies and concertos with an enthusiastic success. And once again, therefore—and you will tell me to go to hell or worse: why Beethoven?

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Reply 45 by danielescarpetti

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danielescarpetti wrote:

I heard the advertisement on Radio tre, besides the symphonies, all the concerts and sonatas.

Not bad indeed. I only hope that since it is the Rai symphony orchestra, Radio tre, in delayed broadcast, will at least transmit something.

Once again I wonder - an absolutely rhetorical question - why Beethoven. Why him, yet again?

 

 

:wub: :wub:

 

 

Esa-Pekka-Salonen

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SbtO66d2j0

 

Gianandrea Noseda

 

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Reply 46 by Bianca

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danielescarpetti wrote:

And once again then, you will tell me to go to hell or worse: why Beethoven?

I believe Frank has already given you the answer: "because it works". There is no other.

Now, his answer had a question mark, but in writing it can serve as both a rhetorical question and an inquiry. Beethoven's complete symphonic cycle is perhaps more popular on average than everything else, and for this reason it is always in the repertoire; and, conversely, it is always in the repertoire because it is generally liked by the audience. Like all other human phenomena (and not just those, obviously), they do not have a precise and unequivocal reason, but derive from a convergent and interfering set of forces. If you continue to ask yourself why, I don't think you will ever be satisfied: why being rather than nothingness?

However, I well understand your doubt, if I may call it that, and I would like to suggest another path to you. Instead of asking "why", ask yourself "how". If nothing else, you might force whoever answers you to give a less subjective and more suggestive explanation, to make you realize a motivation rather than simply a taste.

How could one, for example, define priority criteria that are somehow measurable?

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Reply 47 by danielescarpetti

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In the meantime, the two masters have already given an answer as to why! Then one can, as always, agree or disagree!

Anyway, alright Bianca: the question could also be: how did Beethoven's symphonies, concertos, quartets, and sonatas become, in their entirety, the most performed and most requested?

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Reply 48 by Bianca

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danielescarpetti wrote:

Anyway, alright Bianca: the question could also be: how did Beethoven's symphonies, concertos, quartets, and sonatas become, in their entirety, the most performed and most requested?

Perhaps I didn't explain myself well. This question will bring you back again to a 'why' and to a series of conflicting opinions. Before thinking about this or that composer, one should establish a concrete criterion for evaluation, a valid benchmark regardless of opinion—assuming such a thing exists—and share it with a community. Generally, this is not done, which is why one never gets to the bottom of it. Such an attempt might seem quite daring, but in other fields that appear even more resistant to the application of a scientific method, numerous attempts have already been made, and some even successful.

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Reply 49 by LucaCavaliere

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Bianca wrote:

Before thinking about this or that composer, one should establish a concrete evaluation criterion, a valid yardstick regardless of opinion

Help!

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Reply 51 by danielescarpetti

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Bianca wrote:

Perhaps I didn't explain myself well. This question will bring you back again to a 'why' and to a series of conflicting opinions. Before thinking about this or that composer, one should establish a concrete evaluation criterion, a valid yardstick regardless of opinion, assuming such a thing exists, and share it with a community. Generally, this is not done, which is why one never gets to the bottom of it. Such an attempt might seem quite daring, but in other fields that appear even more refractory to the application of a scientific method, numerous attempts have already been made, and some even successful.

No, Bianca, it's not that you are explaining yourself poorly, it's that I have major limitations!

From my point of view, a "concrete evaluation criterion" could eventually be useful if we wanted to determine here who was the greatest composer. Naturally, that criterion would have to be shared by everyone and, once approved, would be virtually unassailable, always regardless of the legitimate tastes of each of us.

But that is not the point!

The point is that we are faced with a composer, certainly a very great one, who in the two centuries since his death—despite repeated attacks from many intellectuals in various capacities (especially in the period from the beginning of the last century to about the 80s, but not only)—continues, with ups and downs, to dominate the desire for listening. Naturally, this is among that audience which, at least in part, is interested in this type of music. I repeat, this is a fact. A fact that some will scoff at and others will take with a fair amount of resentment, but it is a fact.

That said, it is natural to wonder why? Why Beethoven specifically and not someone else?

Attention! I am perfectly aware that from a media standpoint, starting roughly from the 1920s of the last century, Mozart's figure has taken precedence. Despite this, however, apart from his major theatrical works, his late symphonies, and his most beautiful piano concertos, Mozart does not have an integral performance frequency like Beethoven. But not only that: I would say that after the 2006 binge, the desire for Mozart is slightly declining. But that is just my feeling.

On the other hand, there is another composer, Bach, who, despite his immense greatness, continues to find great interest, particularly among the more intellectual circles and industry professionals.

Substantially, that is the situation!

The question, therefore, arises spontaneously: why is there still this enormous need for Beethoven today?

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Reply 52 by Oracolo

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danielescarpetti wrote:

On the flip side of this, there is another composer, Bach, who, despite his immense greatness, continues to find great interest, particularly only among the more intellectual circles and industry professionals.

In fact, breakers ...are typical industry professionals ... besides, it doesn't seem to me that bach singers appeal to intellectuals. In general, it seems to me that everyone wants to see what they want to see...

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Reply 53 by LucaCavaliere

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Why does Beethoven pull more weight?…Why do complete performances of his sonatas, quartets, symphonies have more appeal?… Why are the Ninth or the Eroica always in play when there is something to celebrate or commemorate?…

The "Beethoven problem" is one of those questions where the question itself is more important than answers that have solid foundations: benchmarks, certain methods, concrete, verifiable criteria…

I listened to the two video interviews posted by Daniele. The two conductors give judgments. They make strong assertions. On what basis?... I don't seem to hear much "method" in their reasoning. And yet, deep down, I feel a lot of affinity – so much! – with what they say.

Regarding this or that work of art (not only musical), we can only have impressions, opinions…

But let them be sincere! And let them be the result of a profound, vital relationship.

Then, by placing them side by side, we can discover that our impressions resemble those of many others.

And the subject of Beethoven, apparently, is a fine example in this sense.

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Reply 54 by LucaCavaliere

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danielescarpetti wrote:

why is there still this enormous need for Beethoven even now?

Personally, I find an answer in those words from the funeral speech read by Grillparzer

«... If a sense of totality still exists in this shattered world, let us gather around his tomb».

Need for Beethoven? = Need for (music) in which a world (first and foremost my inner one) that has gone to pieces is recomposed into unity.

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Reply 55 by ttw

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I'll play devil's advocate:

- Bach's music was written before Beethoven's but was disseminated much later (thanks to Mendelssohn)

- Beethoven's music was written when that music was right for the Napoleonic cause

- As far as I am aware, the world is not the West; I don't know which statistical data is being referred to (sources, please); in any case, it seems to me that opera pulls more from the European side....

Just meditating on these themes can be helpful.

Are these rankings available?

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Reply 58 by danielescarpetti

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As a dear friend of mine would say, "and then we wonder why our politicians are like this."

So I repeat it for the last time, and then... enough!!!!

I am not referring to music tout court, but I am referring to that music that is usually performed in theaters during symphonic and chamber music seasons and that, sometimes, is performed in public squares.

I am referring to complete symphonies, concertos, piano sonatas, clear?

That being said, however, I feel I must give an answer to Oracolo.

I certainly agree on this: in general, it seems to me that everyone wants to see what they want...!

So, I am perfectly aware of the fact that Bach's music is extraordinarily modern, but I wonder and I ask you: when should you have had to defend the modernity of Bach's music when I was alone in this forum?

But let's come to the use of Bach's music nowadays: I wonder and I ask you, how many of those who listen to revisited Bach music are actually interested in listening to the original? That would be interesting.

I am thinking of this famous piece, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2RNe2jwHE0

In your opinion, how many of those who loved it from my generation and the following ones took the trouble to go and listen to the original, which is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItwLShQ_moI

And among those who did, according to you, how many were left ecstatic and how many were not?

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Reply 59 by Bianca

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danielescarpetti wrote:

No, Bianca, it's not that you are explaining yourself poorly, it's that I have major limitations!

From my point of view, a "concrete evaluation criterion" could eventually be useful if we wanted to determine here who was the greatest composer. Naturally, that criterion would have to be shared by everyone and, once approved, would be virtually unassailable, regardless of the legitimate tastes of each of us.

But that is not the point!

I would just like to clarify that I am not contesting your points of view; on the contrary. I am trying to understand how to give a sensible answer to the questions you are asking yourself. And one of my suggestions is precisely to "limit" the scope of the problem. Defining an evaluation criterion means first and foremost that. No concrete criterion could determine an absolute, let alone be shared absolutely. That would be a utopian, impractical criterion. The same question that begins with a 'why' requires an absolute criterion, even if it ends with a proper name. A practical criterion must start from the bottom, even be banal, if you will, and be shared by someone, not everyone. From there, you extend it, little by little, until you manage to increase the consensus, or at least not decrease it.

I read the topic suggested by Pio: interesting, certainly, but it is not the starting point I mean, not at all. And Luca's "help!" is exactly what is needed. You cannot build a criterion of this kind on your own, even if you were the sharpest of minds, precisely because it would lack consensus.

I don't know if I am managing to explain myself, but what I am trying to say is nothing transcendental.

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Reply 60 by Frank

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http://www.pianoconc...-ruolo-sociale/

Master Prosseda's example is cute... if he says it, since he plays everywhere... in the world...

Inventing new forms of music communication: not just concerts in theaters. Proposing live classical music even in very small doses, with micro-concerts of 5-10 minutes in schools, public places, shopping malls, private homes, could perhaps gradually create greater interest and break through that rubber wall that separates most people from listening to a Beethoven sonata.

Damn, of all people, Beethoven... he could have chosen Bach... couldn't he?

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