"Cloned tuning"?

These are your arguments

TheSimon wrote:

As it happens, however, people continue to tune by ear or via software that calculates inharmonicity. Do you truly believe, with all due respect, that these scientists had not already thought of your solution, or do you really think you have invented a new tuning method? You do the math...

l'argomentazione e': e' cosi' perche tutti hanno sempre fatto cosi'.

The argument is: 'it's like this because everyone has always done it this way'.

I asked you to tell me how inharmonicity varies over time and you did not answer.

Maestro Ferrarelli said that the method suggested at the beginning is feasible by decoupling the problem of tuning pin settling.

Your attitude has been intransigent and offensive, implying that we are cheapskates wanting to save a few euros and that we know nothing about either physics or software.

And now I invite you to tell me where I offended you.

And I invite you again to answer regarding the evolution over time of the inharmonicity of a single piano, because that is where the whole problem lies.

In fact, I invite anyone interested in the subject to join, since your position has already been clarified countless times.

You're talking to me about arguments? I wrote two pages motivating the variation of disharmony at every tuning, and you keep saying that so far he has only said: "yes, it can be done as I say" without writing a single formula and without justifying any of your choices?

Paolo and I talked at length about this matter and he expressed my same doubts, and anyway let's not involve people who cannot respond at this moment since they will be away until December.

Is my attitude intransigent and offensive?

Ps if technology feeds you, it can also feed me

who the F*** do you think you are???

Go, go, go home!! We've had more than enough trolls here... And I am no longer willing to be understanding with anyone.

Bye bye

I invite everyone to moderate their tone! Here you can say anything and its opposite... of course without exaggerating in tone or in judgments of others. I very often hear things that contrast with my convictions and they hit me like stones. However, I try to delve deeper and see why they are so far from me. The richness of the exchange lies in this, and even if one of us asserts something forcefully, we must accept it, perhaps, for the moment, without sharing it. Science, I say Science... has even revised Newton's principles!!!!! It may be that one day instruments will self-tune... it may be that perhaps we pianists will no longer play with our fingers but with our thoughts. We don't know. My grandmother's father promised her a second ice cream...."when carriages walk without horses"....That day came early....we put the horses in the engine and we don't take them to drink anymore!!!!!! Ad Majora Friends

I'm sorry, but I disagree, Paolo. Here, you can say anything and its opposite, okay... The important thing is to say it without feeling superior to others, arguing your own ideas in a peaceful and respectful way. With Thallo, just to give an example, we have clashed many times, and other people have done the same. However, none of us has ever resorted to insults or snobbery of any kind, even though discussions have often become very heated, and everything always ends with a smiling emoticon, not to mention, a smile; this is why mutual respect develops between people who might clash through ideas and arguments but would never, ever insult each other. This is the basis of social relationships between people. I believe that at the core, there must always be mutual respect. I do not admit certain positions, I do not admit anyone's snobbery toward someone else, and I categorically do not tolerate insults, under penalty of: immediate ban! It has happened other times as well, we know that well. We are in a forum, just like in real life, people come and go...

Do you respect the rules? You are welcome. Do you not respect the rules? Leave the community.

Many people have congratulated us in private messages that I have received because here we don't think of people as numbers; the latest happened just today. I cannot mention names, but whoever wants to can come forward. Look, I don't want just anyone in this place to be able to disrespect another person, and it is for the same reason that every day I read everyone's posts and receive warnings via private mail or reports.

Perhaps one thing that distinguishes us from other forums could also be this: control.

This also helps to clear things up!

Thank you, I'm going to go study it right away...

What do you think of the Chas?

Jimiherrisong wrote:

What do you think of Chas?

For Chas, you can find an extensive discussion here

www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/906-il-temperamento-chas

... maybe it can be continued there

riccardoM wrote:

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2012 at 19:55, riccardoM said:

These are your arguments

l'argomentazione e' e' cosi' perche tutti hanno sempre fatto cosi'.

These are your arguments: 'it is like this because everyone has always done it this way.'

Ti ho chiesto di dirmi come la disarmonicita' vari nel tempo e non hai risposto.

I asked you to tell me how inharmonicity varies over time and you did not answer.

Il maestro Ferrarelli ha detto che il metodo suggerito all'inizio e' fattibile disaccoppiando il problema dell'assestamento delle caviglie.

Maestro Ferrarelli said that the method suggested at the beginning is feasible by decoupling the problem of the settling of the pins.

Il tuo atteggiamento e' stato intransigente e offensivo lasciando intendere che siamo dei pidocchiosi che vogliono risparmiare pochi euri e che non sappiamo niente ne di fisica ne di software.

Your attitude has been intransigent and offensive, implying that we are cheapskates who want to save a few euros and that we know nothing about either physics or software.

E ora ti invito a dirmi dove ti ho offeso.

And now I invite you to tell me where I offended you.

E ti riinvito a rispondere sulla evoluzione nel tempo della disarmonicita' di un singolo pianoforte perche' e' qui che si gioca tutto il problema.

And I invite you again to respond regarding the evolution over time of the inharmonicity of a single piano because that is where the whole problem lies.

Anzi invito chi sia interessato all'argomento visto che la tua posizione e' gia stata chiarita innumerevoli volte.

In fact, I invite anyone interested in the subject, since your position has already been clarified countless times.

Buongiorno,

Good morning,

L'accordatura non e' una procedura particolarmente semplice in quanto, come detto da Paolo Ferrarelli, e' particolarmente difficile stabilizzare le caviglie in modo che lo strumento regga l'accordatura nel tempo. Personalmente, pur non essendo un accordatore professionista, procedo semestralmente all'accordatura del mio pianoforte con un accordatore elettronico per pianoforte (Tunelab), che misura ed utilizza l'inarmonicia' delle corde.

Tuning is not a particularly simple procedure because, as stated by Paolo Ferrarelli, it is particularly difficult to stabilize the pins so that the instrument holds the tuning over time. Personally, although I am not a professional tuner, I proceed semi-annually with the tuning of my piano using an electronic piano tuner (Tunelab), which measures and uses the inharmonicity of the strings.

Inoltre, la complessita' del processo di accordatura e' anche determinata dal fatto che le frequenze di accordatura cambiano non solo in relazione alle caratteristiche fisiche dello strumento (inarmonicita' ed eta'), ma anche in relazione alle condizioni ambientali al momento dell'accordatura (umidita' e temperatura). Cio' rende piuttosto difficile/impossibile la riutilizzazione di frequenze registrate in precedenza. Quindi, anche se si utilizza un accordatore elettronico dotato di meccanismo per la valutazione dell'inarmonicita', nel caso in cui poche corde perdano la frequenza, occorre quasi sempre procedere all'accordatura dell'intero strumento. Invece, un accordatore professionista riesce a sintonizzare le corde non stabilizzate ad "orecchio".

Furthermore, the complexity of the tuning process is also determined by the fact that tuning frequencies change not only in relation to the physical characteristics of the instrument (inharmonicity and age), but also in relation to environmental conditions at the time of tuning (humidity and temperature). This makes the reuse of previously recorded frequencies rather difficult/impossible. Therefore, even if an electronic tuner equipped with a mechanism for evaluating inharmonicity is used, in the event that a few strings lose frequency, it is almost always necessary to proceed with tuning the entire instrument. Instead, a professional tuner manages to tune non-stabilized strings "by ear."

Five years after the date this post was created, I return to say that if these procedures exemplified for tuning the piano had been feasible, tuning technicians would perhaps have been the first to implement them, especially to save time and therefore earn more. Obviously, tuning 2 pianos a day is one thing, tuning 8 is quite another (assuming such volumes still exist, and I am almost convinced they no longer do).

There are also other variables we haven't discussed, such as psychoacoustic considerations. With Paolo Ferrarelli, for example, we never agree on the extreme highs which, the way he hears them, he always tunes too bright compared to how I hear them. But if I tune them, he obviously hears them flat. The problem is that above and below certain frequencies, psychoacoustic subjectivity kicks in, which is also a function of sound pressure. In particular, playing louder in the highs gives the impression of hearing a sound even higher than it actually is, making them very difficult to tune; so much so that to tune the last keys, the tuner repeatedly tries to refer back to the sound of the lower octave more often than with the previous octaves.

As for inharmonicity, however, this varies depending on many parameters, and even a tiny thing is enough to modify the octave division (which is the starting point), and thus the error propagates to all the notes in the other octaves.

Tuning is an extremely delicate subject, but of course, everyone is completely free to experiment with whatever they want on their instrument...