Composition

Coherence in a musical piece: when? Why? Does it make sense to talk about it?

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Reply 41 by AbateFaria

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I am inserting myself into this difficult and heated discussion

Micrologus wrote:

4 C and an F do not make a piece more coherent, let alone better than another

If I use the 4 Cs and Fs as the structure of the composition, I would say there is coherence, but this does not automatically mean that one piece is better than another. But this is one of the first things Thallo wrote.

However, it must be recognized that all the music that has reached us has always had a reference system; a system is such only if it is coherent... otherwise, what kind of system would it be?

Excuse me, but VI II V is not a system (coherent?)) Of course, hundreds of great artists have expressed themselves in this, and among them, they still do... more math than this. It won't depend on the usual harmonic little formula from the outside, will it?

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Reply 42 by Micrologus

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AbateFaria wrote:

I am inserting myself into this difficult and heated discussion

If I use the 4 C and F as the structure of the composition, I would say there is coherence, but this does not automatically mean that one piece is better than another. But this is one of the first things Thallo wrote.

However, it must be recognized that all the music that has reached us has always had a reference system; a system is such only if it is coherent... otherwise, what kind of system would it be?

Excuse me, but VI II V is not a system (coherent?)) Of course, hundreds of great artists have expressed themselves in this, and moreover, they still do... more math than this. The usual harmonic little formula won't come from the outside, will it?

Perfect, everything you say is perfect, but the problem is that perhaps you haven't followed this whole drama in its entirety.

To summarize, I will let you listen to a piece, one of my compositions...

ATTENTION, I AM NOT IMITATING ANY STYLE, it is my own original composition...

Do you feel up to coming to tell me that towards the end I was not coherent? (this is exactly what happened and what triggered this discussion; naturally, the composition is not mine but belongs to another user)

If the composition is original, what parameters would you use to define my incoherence?

And what if that was my intention?

Wouldn't it be wiser to ask the author for explanations, seeing as they are not a deceased composer from the past,

but rather the person who posted the example?

If I declare, "listen to this beautiful fugue in Bach style that I wrote," and it begins with a series of twelve notes, it is evident that it is not coherent with Bach's style.

But in the case of an original composition, coherence (I prefer to speak of balance) do I not decide it myself?

Certainly, it is not decided by someone else, let alone by a person who then opens a topic on coherence, shifting the discussion onto other tracks.

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Reply 43 by AbateFaria

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Micrologus wrote:

Perfect, everything you say is perfect, but the problem is that perhaps you haven't followed this whole drama in its entirety

To summarize, I let you listen to a piece, one of my compositions...

ATTENTION, I AM NOT IMITATING ANY STYLE, it is my own original composition...

Do you feel like coming to tell me that towards the end I wasn't coherent? (this is exactly what happened and what triggered this discussion; naturally, the composition is not mine but belongs to another user)

In reality, I am the first one who listened to it and commented on it... so I have followed the whole story. It is a composition that moves in a drawn-out and distorted salsa and in an often clumsy way. Therefore, it imitates heavily and I don't even know how original it is, frankly... rather than being incoherent... first of all, it is poor quality

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Reply 44 by Micrologus

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Kappa wrote:

... you should probably direct the question to Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Messiaen. History has already given its reasons... unfortunately they are not my tests.

you brought it up, so am I asking you?

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Reply 45 by Micrologus

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AbateFaria wrote:

In reality, I am the first one who listened to it and commented on it... so I followed the whole affair. It is a composition that moves in a twisted and contorted salsa and often in an awkward way. Therefore, it imitates heavily and I don't even know how original it is, frankly... more than being incoherent... for now it is poor quality

Anyway, let's just say it's not your musical genre, maybe someone else might like it

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Reply 46 by AbateFaria

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Micrologus wrote:

Anyway, let's just say it's not your genre of music, maybe someone else might like it

It is definitely my genre; I am a fan of music for images... probably that's why I don't consider it noteworthy, you can tell it seeks to imitate certain "attitudes" but with ineffective methods... hence my comment which I repeat: "it doesn't grab me as perhaps you would wish". If someone wants to aim in a certain direction... but they don't get there...

And then there are technical deficiencies (which are objective) regardless of taste... and it happens that I do NOT like works that are very well written... for example, there are some Haydn sonatas that I absolutely do not like, yet I recognize their value... so...

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Reply 47 by Kappa

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Micrologus wrote:

you brought the thing up, so should I ask you?

In reality there is no need for someone to bring the thing up, it is already there and just needs to be known, if one wishes ...

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Reply 48 by Micrologus

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AbateFaria wrote:

It is definitely my genre, I am a fan of music for images... probably for this reason I do not consider it noteworthy; you can feel that it seeks to imitate certain "attitudes" but with ineffective methods... hence my comment which I report: "it doesn't grab me as perhaps you would wish". If one wants to aim in a certain direction... but doesn't get there...

And then there are technical deficiencies (which are objective) regardless of taste... and it happens that I do NOT like works that are very well written... for example, there are some Haydn sonatas that I absolutely do not like, yet I recognize their value... therefore ...

So it is your musical genre......

But on a technical level, there is still much work to be done.

It seems like a wise judgment to me; I don't think you should take it upon yourself to change it for him, I believe it is the author's personal journey.

Kappa wrote:

In reality, there isn't even a need for someone to bring it out, it is already there and just needs to be known, if one wishes ...

Very well, we will all study Messiaen and Schoenberg to resolve the dilemma regarding coherence...

So just document your compositions with writings to protect yourself from someone who might call you inconsistent...

You call it coherence, I call it hypocrisy..

Think about what a cage you have created for yourself; you have become a slave to yourself, you dug the hole and fell into it..

But isn't it better to be free?

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Reply 49 by Frank

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Micrologus wrote:

If the composition is original, what parameters would you use to define my inconsistency.

And what if that was my intention?

Wouldn't it be wiser to ask the author for explanations, seeing as they are not a composer from the past who has since passed away,

but is the one who posted the example?

As I was saying in another topic some time ago, this can depend on many factors, not least how much someone perseveres in referring back to a certain language/stylistic device/aesthetic and "forces" the auditory memory to phase itself onto a known reference system.

If the piece actually moves into new territory, the discussion may be legitimate; the fact of studying the piece to understand its mechanisms and criteria, and not least hearing out the composer.... and not without reason, since there is no longer a "shared" system (and consequently no performance practice either), today's composer writes everything in the score and expresses the contents of their "conceptual" work (a long history, which began at the dawn of the last century).

Obviously, not everyone, even today, is for conceptual works.

... I insist on practical examples; I have not yet received any proposals.

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Reply 50 by AbateFaria

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Micrologus wrote:

It seems like a wise judgment to me, I don't think you should bother changing it for him, I believe it is a personal path of the author.

Of course, Mozart used to go to Padre Martini and Bach used to walk to Lübeck to what he considered his master ... personal up to a certain point. Technique is learned and can be taught (so, far from being a personal path...)... content cannot. I feel like I have read about technical content several times..

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Reply 51 by Frank

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A dedicated topic was needed but we have finally arrived at technique, but until when does it make sense to talk about it? And Why?

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Reply 52 by Micrologus

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Frank wrote:

There was a need for a dedicated topic but we have finally arrived at technique, but until when does it make sense to talk about it? And Why?

Enough with this technique, open another topic...

AbateFaria wrote:

Of course, Mozart used to go to Padre Martini and Bach used to walk to Lübeck to what he considered his master ... personal up to a certain point. Technique is learned and can be taught (therefore, far from being a personal journey.)... contents cannot. I feel like I have read about technical contents several times..

Fine, so with a good Master my success will be guaranteed, then clearly I count for nothing, what is the point of talking about myself when I have the possibility to walk to Lübeck?

So one day you will learn technique and then yes, you can be considered a coherent composer, as well as an interesting musician.

But what techniques do you need?

The counterpoint from 500 years ago?

The harmony from just as many years ago?

Serialism?

Who could ever teach you things that do not yet exist?

Isn't a path of personal research better, maybe you could discover that you are a genius (or someone else might), instead think about how much time you have wasted studying useless and primitive things like Palestrina's counterpoint

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Reply 54 by pestatasti

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Micrologus wrote:

I would be very curious to know how you would manage to make a composition coherent that, in your opinion, is not coherent.

Coherence is an objective fact and not an opinion.

What is it that makes something coherent? In music, it is the repetition, if necessary varied, of motivic elements (rhythmic, harmonic, melodic, textural, and of whatever nature they may be...). This applies to Renaissance music as well as to 11th-century music.

Schomberg explains it very well.

Look, Beethoven (just to mention someone) built enormous musical palaces on simple motifs varied and repeated to the point of paroxysm.

In Bach, it is the motivic elements of the subject and countersubject that hold everything together.

It is obvious that art must be free and a composer chooses their "target" based on their own motivations, sensitivity, commissions, etc., etc...

The more a piece has a "popular" destination, the more it must be immediately understandable, therefore the more coherent it must be (choruses, repeating melodies, ostinato basses and rhythms...). If one does not concern oneself with the problem of intelligibility (I am not talking about pleasantness, which is a subjective matter), we can allow ourselves eccentric and entirely incoherent ideas.

However, I think that without a minimum of coherence (as understood above), one cannot speak of an "oeuvre" whether musical or of another type: it would be like calling a piece of writing a "novel" when it changes subject with every line.

Forgive me, but this is what I am convinced of.

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Reply 55 by Piccinesco

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Speaking as someone who has been told (directly and indirectly) that some things they write make no sense, therefore zero coherence; while to others they seemed coherent.

The former: mainly composers or people who have studied composition. The latter: performers (sometimes esteemed by the composers themselves, thus in "potential conflict").

I can say that personally, despite not having the means to understand a piece of contemporary music, I will give a fairly complex practical example:

Some works by Gubaidulina as Frank anticipated, but also Ligeti, Penderecki, Silvestrov, Sciarrino, and others, I perceive as coherent; it seems absurd, but it is so.

Even if one attempts (without a score, but perhaps even with the latter it would have been equally complicated because it is not easy to read a score of a specific contemporary piece) to understand the elements that constitute the work, it can happen to get lost at a certain point; however, despite this, something strictly linked to everyone's perception, or almost all of ours, allows us—even if superficially—to perceive a given work as a coherent work, intuiting, but not understanding, that there is something that "works," that is consequential. In practice, there is this sensation but without awareness. Rules are useful, even those in vogue in the 1300s, although it is wrong to say they prevailed then, because since treatises have existed, these latter are considered rules; before, as all those who study or have studied know, one spoke of performance practices, compositional practices, modes, influences, and last but not least taste, which is always linked to the composer's personality, but also to the performer's skill. I feel ignorant because I do not believe it is sufficient to write how one feels if one is not aware; sure, it can be pleasant, but there is no solidity behind it, at least I experience it this way.

If one thinks of those who perform and not "only" those who compose, a comparison is possible: performance techniques have always existed and evolve, just as compositional ones evolve and shape (change) themselves; what would an performer do who does not know the basics of their instrument's technique—could they arrive at a use that goes beyond what they consider "a certain level"? Or perhaps they would find themselves performing passages that with basic technique they would approach with less difficulty, only to then go beyond? Obviously, I understand that the example intended was of a person who manages to build their own language from nothing, but I would say that is almost a utopia, because unless this person has never listened to anything of any genre, one cannot speak of genius (understood as coming out of nowhere), and there are various nuances to this term. Anyway, if someone listens to (even involuntarily) music that uses established harmonic successions, it's not that if they write pieces that reproduce them, just because they haven't studied them, they are a great [composer]; there, personal taste, sensitivity, the ability or lack thereof to make something out of basic material comes into play, and the factors are truly many. What I can say as someone who years ago rejected rules regardless (and even those I met did not help me get rid of this idea, by too much rigidity I mean, without giving me concrete examples and saying, as is often erroneously said, "because that's just how it's done," like a parrot, without knowing why), and now for some years has been aware (even if I do not use them properly and in this I fail significantly) that they have their own (very profound) reason, is that first of all you can know how to move, you decrease writing times, you are more aware and perhaps even more satisfied for having obtained a result that does not escape "control," therefore not due solely (even if it's not a small thing) to sensitivity and one's own ability or lack thereof to express what one would like in music.

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Reply 56 by AbateFaria

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Micrologus wrote:

Isn't a personal research path better, maybe you could discover that you are a genius (or someone else might do so)

Instead, think that Mozart, perfectly aware of being a genius, went to Father Martini to learn counterpoint

If he did it, I can go to Billone and do the same... ok!?

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Reply 57 by Ludovica

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Micrologus wrote:

Isn't a personal research path better, maybe you could discover that you are a genius (or someone else might do so), instead think about how much time you wasted studying useless and primitive things like Palestrina's counterpoint

...yes, just as Bach wasted time with the Flemish and Renaissance music (among other things he spent nights hand-copying the music of others...one must want to learn). As Mozart and Beethoven wasted time with Haydn, Liszt with Czerny, Berg with Schoenberg, Grisey with Messiaen, Jonathan Harvey with Stockhausen, etc. if you want we can go on? ... but how do you think you will learn to write, by putting yourself under a glass bell and plugging your ears so as not to be "contaminated"?

I would like to listen to one of your pieces, because I would like to be pleasantly surprised...

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Reply 58 by Ludovica

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Of course it is so Pestatasti, I don't know how many composers will have intervened in this topic (even professional and established ones)... but there is only one genius, of whom I haven't heard anything yet, unfortunately. Obviously, I am speaking for myself... maybe others know works by Micrologus...

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Reply 59 by Frank

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... I forgot

Micrologus wrote:

But what techniques do you need?

I have a great curiosity. What can a manual like Kent Wheeler Kennan's orchestration one be used for?

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Reply 60 by CromaDiBrera

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To me, it seems that coherence in music is a simple concept: it consists of adherence to the principles that determined the production of a musical piece. Period. It is not a value in itself if it does not find specific applications, and it can also be a very relative concept.

Getting to the point, I think that the musical form that best expresses the concept of coherence, with all the subjectivity and relativity of the case, is the Variation. It is a form where one must decide from time to time what to vary, deciding to adhere to increasingly different criteria that demonstrate, indeed, how much the concept of "coherence" can be, at the same time, ironclad and versatile.

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