"Contemporary" music

Thnx. Done, but to get the exact time I had to set it to GMT+2.

Practically speaking, I am now in South Africa.

no, now it is fine.

How would you say it in South Africa?

Vitrus wrote:

A me il Tannhauser è piaciuto subito...chi ben comincia è a metà dell'opera

Ovviamente, ho detto Wagner per dirne una... Mi sembri più interessato a trovare conferme che a discutere. A me interessano tutti i generi, non sono io ad avere difficoltà nel comprenderne o apprezzarne alcuni. Saluti.

TheSimon wrote:

How would you say it in South Africa?

I had to put in a strange spindle. Now it's okay.

CromaDiBrera wrote:

Obviously, I mentioned Wagner to name just one... You seem more interested in finding confirmation than in discussing. I am interested in all genres; it is not me who has difficulty understanding or appreciating some of them. Regards.

Dear Croma, of course I see that you are quite experts. Since the composer Frank is passionate about Beethoven's Great Fugue... one could start from there to begin a learning journey

Frank, reveal something to us

Vitrus wrote:

Since the composer Frank is passionate about Beethoven's Great Fugue... one could start from there to begin a learning path

Frank, reveal something to us

...I want to speak with my lawyer

Jokes aside, what do you know about that Beethoven work? Have you ever listened to it? Subjective opinion (do you like it or not)? Objective opinion (is it valid or not and why)?

It sounds like an interrogation, but it is of fundamental importance to know where we are starting from ... I think the answers to these questions for the great fugue "help" in answering the good DrJellyFish as well

I only say one thing... which will probably make me even more unlikable to those who already consider me unlikable

The thing that surprises me most about discussions on contemporary music is the almost total absence of argumentative ability in most detractors. To tell the truth, it is something I find in ALL discussions about music, and it is probably a consequence of the poor teaching of certain subjects (philosophy first and foremost).

What is argumentation? It is the ability to support, credit, or provide evidence in favor (or against) a thesis. It should be the "younger sister" of demonstration, which is a logical-mathematical principle: it is presupposed (often as an axiom) that the demonstration leads to the truth; argumentation, on the other hand, only increases the strength, credibility, or plausibility of a thesis. One can say with mathematical certainty that 1+1 equals 2, and one can say so for specific reasons (namely, that such formulation is consistent with the axiomatization of Peano arithmetic). One can argue with credibility that radiation is harmful to human health (even if it is not certain that all humans react in the same way to radioactive exposure).

Arguing is harder than demonstrating, given that one is not dealing with axioms or logical formalizations. This is why those who want to do it well must study, and those who do it well are very difficult to refute...

Now... Vitrus says

If a work requires repeated and in-depth listening to try to accept it, or rather to process a sense in which to find oneself within it, well, I objectively and subjectively doubt that it is such, at least in the field of Music and health.....

Where is the argumentation?? For what reason, unknown to me, is the repetition of a listening somehow linked to the aesthetic value of a composition??? Is it written on the Allorto? In the great book of life? Did Sauron of Mordor say it? Is it possible that you do not see these argumentative gaps in your statements? I know that maybe you have lives and don't care much about the logical strength of your sentences, but it is frustrating... try to be right, dammit!

Ok, now I would like you to listen to this 1980 piece just once

"Mortuos plango, vivos voco by Jonathan Harvey"

On YouTube it's easy to find in a moment... the "bells" will wake you up ...

Could you give me some feedback? Thank you

Frank wrote:

Ok, now I would like you to listen to this 1980 piece just once

"Mortuos plango, vivos voco by Jonathan Harvey"

On YouTube it's easy to find in a moment... the "bells" will wake you up ...

Could you give me some feedback? Thanks

...then you are truly a connoisseur...

Frank wrote:

Ok, now I would like you to listen just once to this 1980 piece “Mortuos plango, vivos voco by Jonathan Harvey”. It's easy to find on YouTube... the “bells” will wake you up... Could you give me some feedback? Thanks

Look, I listened to it one-third of the way through (meaning the first three minutes).

“Boring” is the only adjective that comes to mind.

I didn't know it, thanks for the report, for the lazy ones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYdRzDx1_J4

I listened to it 3 times in a row precisely because I liked it very much ... I'll stop at my subjective opinion, a bit like Carlos

Open content (youtube)

thallo wrote:

the thing that surprises me most about discussions on contemporary music is the almost total absence of argumentative ability in most detractors.

You are not at all unpleasant to me and I share many of your arguments, but I must make a note: when you say "If you look at a plate of pasta and want to find the 'beauty' in it, then you will find it" you are not answering my question regarding the parameters for evaluating music and contemporary music in particular. It is true that what one likes is beautiful, but at this point any kind of evaluation fails; an object of art (or even not) is worth whatever one says, it is subjective. And I also doubt that it is a quantitative fact, otherwise Michael Jackson is more of an "artist" than Andriessen or Fontana."

Regarding the great fugue

> what do you know about that Beethoven work?

That when Beethoven presented it, he was kicked in the ass and was forced to add a piece to it to satisfy the goat-like listeners

> Have you ever listened to it?

Yes

> Subjective opinion (do I like it or not)?

In its incomprehensibility, fascinating

> Objective opinion (valid or invalid and why)?

I am shit compared to Beethoven, he doesn't need my evaluations

DrJellyfish wrote:

You are not unpleasant to me at all and I share many of your arguments

... I like him too

DrJellyfish wrote:

you are not answering my question regarding the evaluation parameters of music and of contemporary music in particular.

Sorry, but the answer is obvious: the same ones you use for all music. What do you look for in other authors?

Harmony, form, structure, hierarchies, proportions, ...etc.

Of course, if someone doesn't know what a 'mistura' is and the first thing they listen to is here on a forum .... can you understand that it is hard to compare 40 years of listening to a certain genre with only 3 years of something completely different ... in terms of musical content, sound, conceptual approach, etc. ...?

We are all comfortable in our own homes, even changing forums is inconvenient ... let alone changing "wives" ...

Of course, but the nodal point of the discussion is precisely that many of the parameters have been overturned: harmony, form, structure, hierarchies, proportions, ...etc. are difficult to evaluate in certain extreme works. Surely time will play its part; for us, it is easier to frame Bach or Mozart within a historical perspective, I believe it is difficult (and always has been) to judge the value of a work or an artist in real time. The argument that leaves me perplexed is "if you position yourself in the right way, you see beauty in anything"; this leaves room for any kind of arbitrariness. In that case, this kind of comparison would be worthless: to me, Gigi D'Alessio is the greatest composer of all time because I like him...

DrJellyfish wrote:

Of course, but the nodal point of the discussion is precisely that many of the parameters have been overturned: harmony, form, structure, hierarchies, proportions, ...etc. are difficult to evaluate in certain extreme works.

But they exist!

What difference is there between understanding a Bach fugue and a dodecaphonic work?

If you have to assign a value, you have to not give a damn about taste... if we are talking about taste, anything goes ... see the blatant and opposite case between me and Carlos ... he only resisted the sound of bells ... among other things, the only thing noticeable to a layman.

... I haven't read your opinion on both of Frank's proposals, how is it?"

Tiger wrote:

see the glaring and opposite case between me and Carlos ... he only resisted the sound of bells ... which is, incidentally, the only thing noticeable to a layman.

I didn't understand if you are subtly calling me ignorant. There was already in your previous post a reference to comparing 40 years of listening to a certain genre with only 3 years of something completely different, and since I said I had listened to 3 minutes of that piece, I wouldn't want you to be referring to me. Is that so? If it is, let's talk about it openly, okay? I think I am strong enough to withstand your criticism, as well as "learned" enough to allow myself to find a piece by Jonathan Harvey boring...

Carlos wrote:

I didn't understand if you are subtly calling me ignorant. There was already a reference in your previous post about comparing 40 years of listening to a certain genre with only 3 minutes of something completely different, and since I said I had listened to 3 minutes of that piece, I wouldn't want you to be referring to me. Is that so? If it is, let's talk about it openly, okay? I think I am strong enough to handle your criticism, as "learned" enough to allow myself to find a piece by Jonathan Harvey boring...

1. I didn't know you were 40 years old

2. I gave the "goat" [insult] to the listeners who, when faced with contemporary and avant-garde music, called Beethoven a goat... anyway, since you don't have several centuries of life, you are outside of my criticism

That being said, since you took the discussion personally, if you are "learned" enough, you cannot "allow yourself" to just say boring; or rather, you can certainly do it, but you should also go further (and you can, since you know). That is, what is it that doesn't convince you? I feel boredom from the minimalist aesthetic... but this means little and nothing, yet not many years pass between this work and minimalist ones.

Excuse the uppercase "È", but the program keeps converting them ...