Czerny opus 400 - School of Fugue

Tiger wrote:

What is your opinion on the facts regarding the school of fugue?

http://imslp.org/wik..._(Czerny,_Carl)

excuse me, but I am not writing in Ostrogothic.

My 'review' is my personal opinion as an intermediate pianist regarding the Czerny works that I cited, not on the entire educational program he created over a lifetime.

What can I tell you? I am also interested in composition and I already know that the fugue is an advanced branch of composition and, as a specialized structure, it requires quite in-depth study; I am not interested in composing fugues, although I am interested in using a bit of counterpoint. I have studied the rules of counterpoint, but the fugue is not a joke, so I naturally deduce that the work you cited is only for advanced pianists, and not just in a technical sense, but in the sense that they understand what they are playing and are not merely mechanical performers who limit themselves to reproducing what they learn from the score.

In short: if someone performs fugues, they should know the compositional process of the fugue quite well, if not be able to compose them as well. I have reached the sonata, and I will likely be there for quite a while, so for the moment, I am not interested in the fugue.

Therefore, regarding the work you cited, I have no specific opinion except that it is surely yet another great work by Czerny. I have heard many stupid things about Czerny, or at least senseless underestimations, so I will overlook them. Czerny is a great one. There is no discussion. Period.

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

sorry, but I am not writing in Ostrogothic.

It seems very clear to me:

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

hi, well, to tell the truth, I don't even care about others' opinions on Czerny..... not because I don't listen to others' opinions, quite the contrary, but because others' opinions only interest me where I have doubts, and regarding Czerny, I would never have any. He was a great music teacher, a great pianist, and a great pedagogue; he composed more music than anyone else in music history, he was personally chosen by Beethoven to play his music, he taught Liszt.... the more said, the better.

And it is indisputable

It doesn't seem to me that we are talking about just 3 collections and that's it

I renew the question, perhaps it is I who am posting in Chinese

What opinion have you formed on the school of fugue?

If this is the answer

> and it's yet another great work by Czerny

Unfortunately, I need to understand why...

but then I'll write ostrogoth, for goodness sake.

I've already said it.... I don't have an opinion on the work you cited, but only on those I mentioned in the post title.

I'll ask you a question: do you know exactly how a fugue is composed and analyzed? If so, the school of fugue is great and is for you; if not, the school of fugue is great, but you don't need it for the moment. In my opinion, there is no sense in studying a specialized work solely on the fugue if you don't know it well, at least in my opinion..... the fugue is a quite advanced style of composition. At the moment, I prefer music that isn't just contrapuntal.

Then it also depends on what level you are at and how much experience you have behind you, I don't know.

I am at an intermediate level, I've taken a few lessons but I am mainly self-taught.... I used the piano to study harmony, but I started taking it more seriously a couple of years ago.

If this is the answer

> it's yet another great work by Czerny

Unfortunately, I need to understand why...

I don't know, I don't understand why you don't trust [it] so much..... it's like saying 'I'm going to buy a great car, but I don't know if I trust a Ferrari, I'll ask around.'

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

I don't know, I don't understand why you don't trust it so much.....it's like saying 'I'm going to buy a great car, but I don't know if I trust a Ferrari, I'll ask around.'

For the simple fact that I know Czerny's fugues and works well, it is to say the least anti-musical in the genre ...musically speaking, his studies are to Chopin's what his fugues are to Bach's

To put it briefly, there's no hope... or rather, if you see a masterpiece in it, you should say something more. However, it seems to me that you don't really know much about fugues, so the distrust in this comment of yours is quite deserved.

Someone else would have rephrased the question and said: "Since I don't understand a damn thing about fugues, can you give me some opinions?"

That being said, everyone is free to create their own myths... but Op. 400 is very disappointing... I invite you to study it more deeply, I doubt you will be very passionate about it...

Tiger wrote:

For the simple fact that I know the fugue well, Czerny's work is to say the least anti-musical in the genre ...musically speaking, his studies stand to Chopin's as his fugues stand to Bach's

To put it briefly, there's no hope... or rather, if you see a masterpiece in it, you'd better say something more. However, I get the impression that you don't actually know much about fugues, so the distrust in this comment of yours is quite deserved.

Someone else would have turned the question around and said: "Since I don't understand a damn thing about fugues, can you give me your opinions?"

That being said, everyone is free to create their own myths... but Op. 400 is very disappointing... I invite you to study it more deeply; I doubt you will be very passionate about it...

Excuse me, but then you don't understand a damn thing even after insisting quite a bit..... Who are you, Helen Keller? I have written to you TWICE (and this is the third time) that indeed I DO NOT UNDERSTAND fugues, mainly because I AM NOT INTERESTED in them, and you write to me as if I knew your life story by heart and should be able to read your mind. How the hell should I know what you do? You are the one full of insecurities, since you 'know' the fugue yet you can't even do the math by yourself and you can't decide for yourself if this or that is right for you (and then you say you know it well..... but REALLY? well, we are all anxious to hear all the fugues you have composed!) ....

I don't give a damn about the fugue. Understand? Regarding Czerny, I wrote that I have no doubts about ANYTHING he has done, because I, unlike you, am not a ridiculous, picky, presumptuous, and arrogant person who thinks 'mmmh, let's see a bit of Czerny? no, what garbage, a disaster. Bach, on the other hand, is a god'.

Oh, but you are a true master. Compliments.

Is that motorcycle in the photo yours? Well, it's already obvious from your comments here that you are someone who was too spoiled by daddy.

PS. seriously, nonsense like 'eh but that composer's fugues are not up to Bach's level' makes me want to vomit; they are almost always said by big critics who actually don't know how to write anything, or who do it once a year.

But who are you to criticize someone like Czerny? What the hell does Bach have to do with it? And why is there only room for one person who has to be the best? Music isn't a tennis match; one plays what they want because they like doing it.

But why would someone like you criticize Czerny?

Ah ah..... oh come on......

I ask the moderation to take action against the user pianistamaggiorenneDi38 as they have only hurled personal insults at the undersigned without adding value to the discussion.

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

You are the one who is full of insecurities, seeing as you 'know' the fugue and yet you don't know how to do the calculations by yourself and you don't know how to decide on your own if this or that is right for you

In my opinion, they only asked you the question out of kindness... does it seem to you that there are any doubts about the quality of Bach's fugues compared to Czerny's exercises on the fugue?

You just need to open your ears and, at worst, the scores and do a bit of analysis, come on... these are really far-fetched...

Especially since you don't know anything about it... the fugue is a mandatory exam topic for all composers, so anyone who has studied composition will necessarily understand at least a little bit...

Do you know if anything regarding this opus 400 can be found on YouTube, I haven't found anything...

Stellina wrote:

Do you know if anything regarding this opus 400 can be found on YouTube? I haven't found anything...

... I would start asking myself some questions, even Wikipedia doesn't mention it...

Tiger wrote:

I ask the moderation to take action against the user pianistamaggiorenneDi38 as they have only hurled personal insults at the undersigned without adding value to the discussion.

Ohhhh, poor thing.... the boo-hoo.... come on, don't be like that, mommy is at home

You were the one who started with the 'you don't understand a damn thing' about this and that, which is why I gave you a taste of your own medicine. Learn to respect others, and maybe others will respect you more.

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

You were the one who started with the 'you don't understand a damn thing' about this and that

In reality, you wrote it first, having declared it publicly... try re-reading yourself.

Sorry, but in what capacity can one praise a composer? If one doesn't have the skills, at most one can talk about like/dislike ...and I'm not the one saying it, you are the one saying it, since you don't understand and aren't interested. Ok?

Tiger wrote:

... I would start asking myself some questions, even wiki doesn't mention it...

eheh, it's true, it's one of those conspiracy theories, like the white trails in the sky. Be careful, though..... don't trust anyone.

Tiger wrote:

Actually, you wrote it first, having declared it publicly... try re-reading yourself.

Sorry, but in what capacity can one praise a composer? If one does not have the skills, at most one can speak of like/dislike ...and I'm not saying this, you are saying it, since you don't understand and aren't interested. Ok?

But who are you? Who are you to criticize the work of a historical figure who lived hundreds of years before you, and who wrote the history of music, who taught other historical figures, and whose works are still used? I respect ALL composers, even those whose music I do not listen to. And I never say 'it's no good', 'this sucks', 'this is better than that' and nonsense of this type; I only say 'I respect it, but I don't prefer it, there is what I prefer and what I respect'. CPE Bach writes in his book that one always learns something from ALL music, and it is absolutely true.

What have you done that allows you to feel superior to me? And what criterion gives you the competence to tell me that I lack competence in this or that? I learned to read and write music; I studied harmony from Schoenberg's books and counterpoint from a book by Cherubini. I did it all by myself. And don't delude yourself too much, I studied fugue theory, and I listened to Bach very carefully. I am not stupid, and I praise whoever I want, clear?

And for the thirtieth time, my post was ONLY about the cited works. How should I tell you, in gibberish? I have no doubts about anything regarding Czerny, because I like his music and history has made it with facts, not chatter.

I have no doubts about anything he wrote; I would trust his experience completely. Just as I would trust the experience of any one of all the composers who wrote music in buckets, because I know that if someone has written all the music that someone like Czerny has written, it means they are an expert in their field, clear? If you don't like his fugues, do whatever the hell you want, I don't care at all, rest assured, my life doesn't change.

Let's be clear: Czerny was a master of composition, he wrote music in buckets and was someone who taught some of the best musicians in the history of music; you have done absolutely nothing.

At least I respect and appreciate the work of other composers. Even if I might not prefer it to others, I have no reason to despise anything. Yes, I said it and I repeat it, I am sure that Czerny's art of fugue is a masterpiece, clear? I am not saying it is better or worse than Bach; this chatter doesn't interest me, I leave it to those who do not write music, but only criticize it.

WAM wrote:

You just need to open your ears, or at worst the scores, and do a bit of analysis, come on... they are really far-fetched...

Tantamount that you don't understand it... the fugue is a mandatory exam topic for all composers, so anyone who has studied composition will necessarily understand at least a minimum amount...

The questions I asked before also apply to you.....how many fugues have you written? If you have written fewer than Czerny, then in my opinion yours are also just talk, the result of an ego that thinks, for whatever reason, that just because you study the fugue a little for a few months, all of a sudden you are a great composer. I certainly never thought anything bad about Bach; we all know what he did and I appreciate Bach's music very much. I only said that I don't understand why these useless comparisons exist. The post was about the cited opus, it wasn't about Bach, it wasn't about the fugue, it wasn't even about the Art of Fugue, and YOU were the ones who went off-topic, even though I didn't say anything.

Calm down, don't get so full of yourself; as I wrote just above, I have studied the theory of the fugue, but unlike you and Tiger, I am not a snob, and I am not so presumptuous as to think that a diploma makes you write furiously like all those great composers did, including Czerny. Well, thank goodness you're here, whose fugues will appear in the history of music in a few hundred years.

and let me explain myself better, what I mean is that I am not a snob.... I listen to and appreciate all music, from medieval and Renaissance, to classical, to ethnic music from all over the world, to jazz, to cartoon theme songs, to the little song 'Fra Martino Campanaro', and everything in between. I disdain nothing at all, because I don't have to pass any exams and my mind is free to listen to what I like, without any prejudice. Parenthetically, WAM, you were talking about passing exams as if this forum were called 'Exams.com' or as if it said 'forum dedicated exclusively to those who must take exams'.

It doesn't seem that way to me at all; it seems to me that it is a forum where anyone passionate about piano music can participate, so there is no point in making it appear that what you think this forum is based on is what the creators of this forum decided.

So, returning to the point you made about 'opening your ears', perhaps it is you who should do it, and while you're at it, open your mind a little too; music doesn't only exist in conservatories, and Bach & co. didn't write music for people taking exams.

I invite everyone to moderation!!!! Even regarding extreme and distant opinions, I invite you to maintain respect. This is and must be a free place, where one can strongly assert their own convictions, but without offending or mocking opposing opinions.

Thank you

I have read the entire topic and from my point of view, everyone is subject to criticism, myself first ... but also Mozart.

Since we are human, we are all fallible, so the fact that a musician is cited in history books does not automatically establish 360° that everything they wrote is pure gold.

Furthermore, I do not think that quantity is the only parameter to determine whether a musician has value or not; if I count how many fugues I have written, I easily surpass those of Czerny, but in all intellectual honesty, I only consider about fifteen of them to be music ... the others are exercises. As further proof that quantity counts only up to a certain point, although always speaking honestly, those that I consider music ... truly are.

In any case, the work of comparison between musicians is always productive and, above all, if done wisely, it is very useful. Furthermore, I would place it more on an evolutionary level and start from Bach's fugues (with a view toward the Renaissance), passing through Mendelssohn's, and perhaps taking a quick look at Franck... (but also others, suggestions are welcome)... the important thing would be not to overlook the Second Viennese School in order to understand what of the fugue and counterpoint in general was taken by Schoenberg & Co. and therefore incorporated into dodecaphony.

Dulcis in fundo... I would go as far as Stravinsky, analyzing his dodecaphonic works, especially looking for analogies to the fugue and understanding what remains and how much less.

Another quick look... in 1960 Dave Brubeck recorded the suite "Points on Jazz" for two pianos, in which he also includes a Fugue. It deserves further study.

Honestly, in a discussion of this kind, I cannot place Czerny's fugues...

...clearly everyone is free to listen to the music they desire, and if Czerny's fugues are significant to someone, that should be respected... as vice versa; I understand that time is short, life is brief, and there is so much music and so many fugues to listen to that one must inevitably set priorities... both in terms of taste and professional needs.

Aside from all that, I doubt that Czerny went down in history for Op. 400... or rather, Op. 400 is uninfluential for the evolution of a process such as that of the fugue.

Therefore, I would take the best part of Czerny, his repertoire (I linked something somewhere)... which, along with some didactic works, describes him as a valid artist.

And returning to the beginning of my post, whether we like it or not, the world is not just black or white; so, despite being written in history books, some artists have had more weight and others less.

Who establishes this is not I, nor anyone else, but time, which incessantly corrodes the works of musicians who, however great they may be or have been, feel the passing of centuries.

Even today, several works by greats like Schubert are affected by this inevitable course... for other very recent works, life has been very short, and if we were not in the digital age ... I think they would only be in history books.

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

Bach & co. did not write music for those taking exams.

Bach in particular wrote for relatives and the mass