Czerny opus 400 - School of Fugue

Frank wrote:

Honestly, in a discussion of this kind, I can't place Czerny's fugues...

and who started talking about it, me? It was Tigrotto and 'Wham' who started complaining as if they wanted to be compensated for something

WAM wrote:

Bach in particular wrote for relatives and the mass

really? I didn't know that. Look look......

Frank wrote:

I have read the entire topic and from my point of view everyone is subject to criticism, myself first ... but also Mozart.

Since we are human, we are all fallible, so the fact that a musician is cited in history books does not automatically establish 360° that everything they wrote is pure gold.

Furthermore, I do not think that quantity is the only parameter to determine whether a musician has value or not; if I count how many fugues I have written, I easily surpass those of Czerny, but in all intellectual honesty, I consider only about fifteen of them to be music ... the others are exercises. As further proof that quantity counts only up to a certain point, although always speaking honestly, those that I consider music ... truly are.

Anyway, the work of comparison between musicians is always productive and, above all, if done wisely, it is very useful. Furthermore, I would place it more on an evolutionary plane and start from Bach's fugues (with a gaze turned toward the Renaissance), passing through those of Mendelssohn and perhaps taking a little trip to Franck... (but also others, proposals are welcome)... the important thing would be not to overlook the Second Viennese School in order to understand what of the fugue and counterpoint in general was taken by Schoenberg & Co. and therefore incorporated into dodecaphony.

Dulcis in fundo... I would go as far as Stravinsky, analyzing his dodecaphonic works, especially looking for analogies to the fugue and understanding what remains and how much less.

Another little trip... in 1960 Dave Brubeck recorded the suite "Points on Jazz" for two pianos, in which he also includes a Fugue. It deserves further study.

Honestly, in a discussion of this kind, I cannot place Czerny's fugues...

...clearly everyone is free to listen to the music they desire and if Czerny's fugues are significant to someone, it is right that they be respected... as vice versa, I understand that time is short, life is brief, and there is so much music and so many fugues to listen to that one must inevitably set priorities.... both in taste and professionally.

A latere to all this, I doubt that Czerny went down in history for Op. 400... or rather, Op. 400 is uninfluential for the evolution of a procedure such as that of the fugue.

Therefore, I would take from Czerny his best part, his repertoire (I linked something somewhere)... which, along with some didactic works, describes him as a valid artist.

And returning to the beginning of my post, whether we like it or not, the world is not just black and white, so despite being written in history books, some artists have had more weight and others less.

Who establishes this is not I, nor anyone else, but time, which incessantly corrodes the works of musicians who, whether they are or were great, feel the passing of centuries.

Even today, several works by greats like Schubert suffer from this inevitable course... for other very recent works, life has been very short, and if we were not in the digital era ... I think they would only be in history books.

We are all fallible in something, but no one automatically has the right to devalue something done by others. Even if Op. 400 was 'uninfluential', already regardless of the fact that Czerny composed more than all of us combined, it already makes me think that being so annoying is a useless exercise; if someone doesn't like Op. 400, they can move on to something else, there is no need to make a criticism that is moreover without any depth of thought (at least you defined it as 'uninfluential').

It's like the spectator in the arena who criticizes the fighter who is losing. I have no respect for this type of observer (I am not talking about you, at least you know how to express your opinion calmly, which also influences me). And anyway, it is too easy to theorize without getting one's hands dirty, rolling up one's sleeves, and getting to work.

In the meantime, being one of the fighters in the arena is always worth more than any spectator. And excuse me, but in my opinion, the argument that if it weren't for the digital era, Schubert would only be in history books makes no sense. He wrote the music on paper and it has been studied, learned, and analyzed everywhere, so it doesn't seem to me that we are talking about someone who needs to sell their music on iTunes.

As for Stravinsky, I respect him, but his music does not interest me nor do I like it. Furthermore, he also spoke very highly of Czerny.

My point is: if someone doesn't like A, they can easily ignore A and try B; there is no use playing the music critic. I detest critics. In my opinion, they are like old gossips sitting at the hairdresser, with their wrinkled faces, their rollers, and their newspaper, saying 'have you heard this one?'.

I think that there is"} ,

a big difference between one who criticizes and one who, as I said, gets their hands dirty and gets to work. In any case, Czerny's experience in writing fugues is superior to anyone else's here. That is why I respect everything he has done, including op. 400. Not because I believe Czerny is perfect, but because I trust his experience. I do not compare anyone with anyone; everyone's DNA is unique and there will never be another person who is equal to anyone who exists, who has existed, or who will exist.

Anyway, I respect your opinion and I also respect you, and not because you are the moderator, but because at least you took the trouble to make an exhaustive speech and not just write superficially.

pianoexpert wrote:

I call on everyone for moderation!!!! Even regarding extreme and far-reaching opinions, I invite you to maintain respect. This is and must be a free place, where one can strongly assert their own convictions, but without offending or mocking opposing opinions.

Thank you

Well said.

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

excuse me, but in my opinion the argument that if it weren't for the digital era, Schubert would only be in history books, makes no sense at all.

It makes no sense because I fear you misread my (subtle) statement which was not directed at Schubert but

citazione wrote:

for other very recent works

among which it is impossible to include works by Schubert that are several centuries old.

And besides, my reading between the lines was absolutely not referring to iTunes; there is a host of works that now only live in books, and if it weren't for YouTube, you would never hear them at concerts (let us remember that music must be breathed live) ...something that is also happening to certain works by Schubert and others. Clearly, for two completely different reasons... and indeed even the resistance to the passage of time is different.

PS

I am not a music critic; I am a composer. I write, and the analysis and comparison of works by different composers (and their techniques) is vital nourishment. Your point of view is that of the performer or the listener, which is very different from that of a composer. To be clear, we make two completely different uses of pieces that exist, and consequently, the approach to the subject matter also suffers. Although, to tell you the truth, a good analysis also produces a good interpretation of the score, I am referring to a potential performance.

I don't think there is a right or wrong approach... but assuming that I wanted to return to being a performer, if I wanted to learn to play a contrapuntal language on the piano, I wouldn't go to Czerny, who is instead more effective in other areas.

And I am speaking of pianism and not of compositional value.

I will also add that I don't know how productive it is for a pianist to completely ignore the contrapuntal realm; aside from missing out on a considerable part of the repertoire, in my opinion, it will be difficult to achieve that completeness necessary for a good performer.

One can also draw parallels by talking about other fields, without going far, the world of composition.... since the topic is also frequented by composers.

For example, there are those who ignore or want to ignore certain techniques thinking they are useless a priori, whereas one can derive much benefit from them. Knowledge has never killed anyone... the opposite condition is much worse.

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

regardless of the fact that Czerny composed more than all of us combined anyway

Well, you could only claim that if you knew your interlocutors and their music... since you don't know me, yours is a mere prejudice. I have analyzed and played Czerny's score myself; I doubt you have (since you explicitly confirm it... it must be so)... I get my hands dirty

I am only saying that no one today should take something as a foregone conclusion and, trust or no trust, one should aim to develop one's own critical sense capable of even questioning the work of another musician.

Vasco Rossi has written several hundred songs, yet his value is what it is... note that I am comparing him to people like the Beatles, Lady Gaga, etc.

And yet in the books of Italian pop music history, Vasco is cited...

...I can tell you one thing: who cares. There is much better in the world; I don't waste a minute on his music even if at the level of "trust".... he is not a stranger.

I would like to point out that it is the "School of Fugue" and not "The Art of Fugue"....anyway, has anyone found anything?

In short, if it's not on YouTube and they don't perform it at concerts... where can I listen to it without having to study the whole massive piece myself on the piano?

Thanks again

Goffredo Liguri in another topic made me think of what Schumann wrote regarding "fugues" ... who knows if he knew Czerny's music, I am asking in general. Given the absence of today's powerful means of communication.

"Play diligently the fugues of the good masters, before all those of Bach. Let The Well-Tempered Clavier be your daily bread. Then you will surely become a most excellent musician."

Forgive me, but I hadn't read this discussion. I can't keep up with everything; in case similar incidents occur again, I would invite moderators to take immediate action or users to write to me privately... Thank you

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

Is that your motorcycle in the photo? Well, it's already obvious from your comments here that you are someone too spoiled by daddy.

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

Eh, but you are a true master. Compliments.

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

i, contrary to you, I am not a ridiculous, picky, presumptuous and arrogant person

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

Ohhhh, poor thing.... the scolding.... come on, don't be like that, mommy is at home

Dear Pianistamaggiorennedi38,

it must be clear to everyone, including you, that we are not at a market here and certain 'Ghetto' attitudes are not welcome at all. Despite having read the entire discussion, I am not even interested in knowing the reasons that pushed you to adopt such a peremptory, offensive, and let's say, infantile behavior towards another user; the mere fact that you have adopted it immediately places you in the position of someone who must take responsibility for their own actions, which possess characteristics that are on the verge of being grounds for a lawsuit by Tiger.

When you signed up, you adhered to the rules of netiquette but, without wanting to appeal to the rules, I would say, using a bit of common sense, that when someone joins a discussion platform, they put themselves out there. It is easy to write something and find consensus, just as, likewise, the opposite is easy. One must accept the criticisms of other people even if, due to our view of the subject, they seem misplaced, and respond to such attacks, if at all, with sagacity and proper measure and not as you did in an acrid and mocking way. One can win people's esteem, despite different points of view, simply by arguing one's own theses and demonstrating being intelligent people who have, for obvious reasons, different perspectives... Remembering that having different perspectives, both valid, is not only legitimate but also something scientifically demonstrable...

In the same way, it would be a demonstration of intelligence and an act that is anything but mean to offer due apologies to Tiger for the defamatory words, with the promise not to repeat what happened in the future.

No problem TheSimon, I have thick skin...

... it probably wasn't too well received that I broadened the discussion. My intention was to understand whether the interlocutor had or did not have a 360° view of the composer Czerny and the arguments according to which Czerny himself was valued in all fields and indisputably as an authority.

It doesn't matter, here everyone deserves everyone else's respect as long as I am the one holding the reins. The same message could be addressed to you if you have similar outbursts in the future. There is no favoritism. There must be mutual respect in here. I am of the opinion that it is better to have a few good ones than many just to profit from advertising. Why do you think there are no advertisements in here? Do you think I haven't thought about it? Draw your own conclusions...

TheSimon wrote:

I am of the opinion that it is better to have a few good ones than many just to profit from advertising. In your opinion, why are there no advertisements in here? Do you think I haven't thought about it? Draw your own conclusions...

...why do you think I signed up? I am fed up with forums where discussions are incited just to create (useless) posts and increase the doses of advertising royalties.

When I saw that there were no sponsors....eh, eh.

Then again, it's not certain; there could even be some, but it depends on how an environment is managed...in any case, the absence of banners is a plus and not a minus

You can't imagine how much your statement pleases me because it goes hand in hand with a bet of my own.

The point is that investing in quality is something we set out to do from the beginning, and we decided that the quality of a few is better than the superficiality of many.

By quality, I don't mean skills so much as the quality of the people, which is then reflected in the civility that pervades the forum and the atmosphere one breathes here within the topics, with truly very few exceptions since we opened. (Forgive me if I take the liberty of being a bit rude).

For the moment, management costs are not prohibitive, and I don't think they will be in the future either. Therefore, as long as we can, we will invest and keep this place clean from sponsors and advertising banners. If anything, we would propose a sponsor one day only if it brings actual benefits not to us (Paolo and I) but to the entire community. Just to give an example, if a large music and audio megastore contacted us and requested advertising in exchange for 20% discounts for members (I'm just giving an idea). In this case, for the good of everyone, I might even give in. In other cases, 200 euros a month from a sponsor honestly wouldn't change my life and would ruin a clean place.

So for now, it is better to avoid it.

Sorry, I have taken you too far off topic.

re: Simone

i disappeared because, frankly, I no longer had the time to keep up with all this ridiculous nonsense and because, at almost 40 years old, I have learned to value my time.

You shouldn't think that I write like this out of disrespect; I express myself this way because I don't like hiding behind sentimentality and big words—that's just how I am, there's nothing I can do about it. I assure you that the only people I respect here are simply you and Paolo for putting those videos first, and secondly, the people who answered my questions in the past and gave me valid advice.

As for the others, I absolutely don't care at all. Forgive my bluntness, but that's just how it is. I was derisive toward Tiger because, first of all, if Tiger wanted me to take him seriously, he should have avoided writing childish things like:

'AAAAAHHH! I want the moderator, this user should be kicked out!' I don't remember his exact words, nor do I bother to revisit them; it doesn't matter, I have no time to waste.

From the beginning, it wasn't that I cared about communicating with him in any way: what he wrote about Czerny was devoid of any noteworthy observations. In plain words, he explained nothing. And I have no respect for someone who belittles the work of others with two empty words. Furthermore, he was the one who started adopting an annoying tone, something I began to reciprocate in my own way, and I am not taking anything back.

If they can write the fugue better than Czerny, let them do it instead of just talking. What are they waiting for?

And I will tell you that, generally speaking, I detest forums as well. I am speaking to you with respect, not because you are someone who runs a forum—there are too many of those—but because all in all, together with Paolo, you have offered the public a forum with video content and more, of quality, and without expectations of reward. I respect that, rest assured. And it's not because I'm afraid of no longer being part of this forum or to be a suck-up—I didn't intend to write anything more anyway—but in any case, I would communicate in the same manner, more or less.

I didn't go to school, or rather, I attended the first year of high school; I did well for 3 months and then I stopped going and let myself fail on purpose because I wasn't interested. I wanted to go to the conservatory but they didn't send me there, and I would never blame my dear parents even for a moment: the fault was mine for not insisting, and the fact that I didn't go to a conservatory has never quite sat well with me, unfortunately.

But, there is a 'but'.

I am not an ignorant person at all; quite the contrary. I speak and write 3 languages without ever having studied any of them, and I have studied music seriously, as much as I could, and I understand theory and harmony very well, up to the level I have reached, which is not at all little, and I will continue to study; I don't care if I'm no longer 20. In fact, the older I get, the more my bond with music solidifies, and it is a project to which I will dedicate even the years I have left. So, and I ask you this please and in all serenity, do not make ridiculous requests like 'you should apologize'. I only gave my opinion on the work in question; the rest was provoked by snobbery that doesn't interest me and attitudes that aren't worth taking seriously.

If you don't like how I express myself, there is nothing I can do about it. As you have noticed, I haven't written anything since late March and I only visited the forum again today. Don't take it personally, Simone, but there are too many snobs and too many people with their noses in the air in this forum; today, before writing this reply, I read in my spare time what happened with Germano, and I don't criticize you at all for your technical and exhaustive answers, and even if Germano seemed detached from the start, I understood him: like him, I am more interested in the actual notes than in frequencies on an oscilloscope or whatever it's called. However, I repeat, I am not saying at all that your answer wasn't interesting, but it was clear that Germano was more interested in the music of equalizers, a tendency I share.

And users like Lory and her engineer are unbearable—for goodness' sake, what a pain. Extremely boring and annoying. They have confirmed to me that I don't want to write or share anything here. It's a shame, because instead of a place where divas like that show off their personality problems, it should just be a place where people talk about music and also, why not, make some friends.

I'll leave Tiger alone; I've already wasted too much time on him. Good luck with his fantastic fugues.

And I will tell you, I am quite similar to Germano: when I lose my patience, I do it in the way he did. But I won't do it, because I have learned to maintain a certain control and also because I have learned not to take things too seriously.

what others say. Who cares if so-and-so thinks X or Y? Let them think whatever they want, I don't care at all.

I wouldn't lose control like Germano did, even though I understand why he did it. But anyway, I won't write anything more. Life is too short for such nonsense.

I understand you; in the end, you are doing what you have to do because this is your home, and I understand that perfectly well. But wasting time with types like Tiger or Lory stimulates intelligent conversation even less than watching wallpaper that peels off the wall day by day.

Ciao

PS: ah, I forgot: to conclude once and for all, I also like Czerny's fugues.

Thank you, Czerny, for having demonstrated, to all of us here, what it means to write them.

Amen

The world is beautiful because it is diverse, there are those who also have a taste for the horrific... therefore tastes are never debatable.

Perhaps demonstrations a little more... but in the topic unfortunately I haven't yet read a concrete element for or against Czerny's material which, among other things, I didn't know and now I only know that it exists.

I will answer you point by point...

pianistamaggiorenneDi38 wrote:

re: Simone

i disappeared because, sincerely, I no longer had the time to keep up with all this ridiculous nonsense and because, at almost 40 years old, I have learned to value my time.

You shouldn't think that I write like this to disrespect you; I express myself this way because I don't like hiding behind sentimentality and big words—that's just how I am, I don't know what to do about it. I assure you that the only people I respect here are simply you and Paolo for putting those videos first, and secondly, the people who have answered my questions in the past and given me valid advice.

As for the others, I absolutely do not care at all. Forgive my bluntness, but that's just how it is. I was derisive toward Tiger because, first of all, if Tiger wanted me to take him seriously, he should have avoided writing childish things like:

'AAAAAHHH! I want the moderator, this user should be kicked out!' I don't remember his exact words, nor do I even bother to revisit them; it doesn't matter, I have no time to waste.

Honestly, I don't even remember what the problem was between you and Tiger, but if you truly had respect for me and Paolo, you should have understood that behaving this way harms us, and out of respect for us, you should have contacted us if you had any problem instead of trying to resolve it on your own in the most wrong way. The issue is that I, as an administrator, cannot allow a user to resort to insults. In my opinion, as I also wrote in this post that I invite you to read, offending does nothing but invalidate any valid point one might have had. Being on a forum does not preclude expressing one's ideas using certain tones. A "f*** off..." can take on completely opposite meanings depending on the tone used. How many times have my friends jokingly sent it to me? Or how many times has it happened to you? Emoticons exist on forums, but they don't entirely solve the problem because many could use faces to throw the stone and hide the hand, as in: "I'll use swear words and use a smiley face so that at least while I insult them, I can always say I was joking." Well, I believe that, especially online to avoid problems, one should not insult anyone, even as a joke. In the words you used with Tiger, I could not read even a hint of a joke.

Given that from the beginning I didn't particularly care to communicate with him in any way: what he wrote about Czerny was devoid of noteworthy observations. In plain words, he explained nothing. And I have no respect for someone who belittles the work of others with two empty words. Furthermore, it was he who began adopting an annoying tone, something I started to reciprocate in my own way, and I am not taking anything back.

If they can write the fugue better than Czerny, let them, instead of just talking. What are they waiting for?

Precisely because you are close to the threshold of 40, you should understand that we live in a world where it is lived experiences that shape and mold human thoughts. As Ludovica says well, there are those who love the grotesque; for us "statistically normal" people, it is difficult to accept finding pleasure in the grotesque (it is a contradiction just to pair the two words), however, what does someone who loves the grotesque take away from us?

I don't remember what Tiger wrote on the subject and forgive me if I don't go looking for it given the time and since I will have to get up in a few hours, but whatever he wrote, that is his idea which, no matter how strange it may seem to you or how close to sacrilege it may feel in your thoughts, must be respected. You can ask questions, ask for reasons that justify a reasoning, you can give your own ideas to try to induce others to change theirs, but not with insults; with insults, one only becomes what they are not. Even if he had said that Czerny was a poor fool, what would that have taken away from you? (Clarifying the fact that I like Czerny very much and have played many of his pieces, including his legendary toccata). Honestly, it wouldn't have taken anything away from me; they are different points of view.

...

I am not an ignorant person at all, quite the contrary. I speak and write 3 languages without ever having studied any of them, and I have studied music seriously, as much as I could, and I understand theory and harmony very well, up to the level I have reached, which is not at all little, and I will continue to study; I don't care if I am no longer 20. In fact, the older I get, the more my bond with music solidifies, and it is a project to which I will also dedicate the years I have left. So, and I ask you this please and in all serenity, do not make ridiculous requests like 'you should apologize.' I only gave my opinion on the work in question; the rest was provoked"}

from snobbery that doesn't interest me and attitudes that aren't worth taking seriously.

If you don't like the way I express myself, I don't know what to do about it. As you have noticed, I haven't written anything since late March and I only visited the forum again today. Don't take it personally, Simone, but there are too many snobs and too many people with their noses in the air in this forum; today, before writing this reply, I read idly what happened with Germano, and I don't criticize you at all for your technical and exhaustive answers, and even though Germano seemed detached from the beginning, I understood him: like him, I am also more interested in the actual notes than in frequencies on an oscilloscope or whatever it's called. But, I repeat, I am not saying at all that your answer wasn't interesting, but it was clear that Germano was more interested in the music than in equalizers, a tendency I share.

It doesn't seem to me that anyone called you ignorant. In any case, my request is not ridiculous at all; apologizing when one offends is a sign of great intelligence and humility, and one does not appear weak when apologizing, because it is much harder to apologize than to continue insulting or pretending nothing happened. Snobbery or not, I believe that is not the way one should address people, and in this case, without making a scene, if your way of acting, as you yourself admit, leads you to offend others, I am here to ask you in friendship to step away.

Regarding Germano, if he was more interested in the music, it would have been enough for him to tell me that he had no interest in the arguments I had made and that his intent was 100% musical instead of insulting me. I had sensed something, and when I started by saying that if we had to argue or compete (I don't remember which term I used but that was the sense) and I preferred to end it there, the disaster happened. I tried everything to avoid going to war, but perhaps everything was already decided.

And users like Lory and her engineer are unbearable, for goodness' sake, what a pain. Extremely boring and extremely annoying. They confirmed to me that I don't want to write or share anything here. It's a shame, because instead of a place where such prima donnas flaunt their personality problems, it should be just a place where one talks about music, and also, why not, makes some friends.

I'll let Tiger go, I've already wasted too much time on him. Good luck with his fantastic escapes.

And I will tell you, I am quite similar to Germano: when I lose my patience, I do it in the same way he did. But I won't do it, because I have learned to maintain a certain control and also because I have learned not to take what others say too seriously. Who cares if so-and-so thinks X or Y? Let them think whatever they want, I couldn't care less.

I wouldn't lose control like Germano did, even though I understand why he did it. But anyway, I won't write anything more. Life is too short for this nonsense.

I understand you; in the end, you are doing what you have to do because this is your home, and I understand that perfectly. But wasting time with types like Tiger or Lory stimulates intelligent conversation even less than watching wallpaper that peels off the wall day by day.

Bye

Lory and her friend acted as a fuse and proved to be mentally ill, and in fact, they were also removed. However, I would just like to remind one thing not only to you but to everyone else reading us. When one decides to become public, it is necessary to know how to accept not only positive feedback but also and above all negative feedback (especially if constructive and devoid of any derogatory content), and if only you knew how many I have had to accept... As far as I'm concerned, Germano could have even recorded with a microphone found inside an Easter egg, but we are on a forum; here, people discuss and sometimes argue, my intervention towards him was intended to be anything but aggressive. Evidently I was misunderstood; the fact remains that one does not behave this way, and I ask those reading to put themselves in my shoes for a moment: what would they have done and how would they have felt if they had received phrases like the ones I received: "Simone Renzi, you are the mirror of Italy" etc. etc.

Now you put yourself in Tiger's shoes and tell me what you would have done. If you are a person who wants respect, you should understand that it is also right to show it to others. When peace is not possible, there is always another weapon: cutting things off at the root and avoiding future confrontations with that user.

In any case, if you want to continue reading and writing here above while respecting everyone, you will be welcome; if you behave as you did in the first round with Tiger,

It is I who am kindly asking you to go out with style and in a painless way.

Thank you and sorry for the practicality.

Ludovica wrote:

i have not yet read a concrete element for or against Czerny's material

It would have been nice... but I understand that one can also express oneself merely in terms of taste.

well many of Bach's educational works are written primarily for his children, but obviously other students who frequented his house used them too, I imagine