Degrees or Diplomas?

They are equated and anyway

http://www.ilsussidi...usicali/231094/

CONSERVATORY/ The fate of musicians and the failure to reform musical studies Pietro Blumetti Thursday, December 29, 2011

Last month, a very important Bill (DDL 1693) was approved in the Senate for Italian musicians. It concerns a regulation relating to the Reform of Musical Studies which, among other things, provides for the equivalence of Conservatory Diplomas from the old system to the II-level academic Diplomas of the new system (master's degrees).

A very important provision because, finally after 10 years, it erases a serious injustice; that which all Italian musicians suffered back in 2002, due to a Decree Law that devalued their Conservatory Diploma, equating it only to the new 1st-level Diploma instead of the 2nd-level one; "the maximum" academic title held by every musician (and which formally had always represented the glorious musical culture expressed by our country and exported throughout the world) became in one fell swoop "the minimum" academic title.

Etc.

...think of the old graduates who even did the two-year period...who will repay you for those years and that money?

GoffredoLIguri wrote:

But do conservatories issue Degrees or diplomas? I am asking because I seem to have read "first-level diploma", "second-level diploma" ... and not a first or second-level DEGREE?

Why must such easy things be made complicated?

Thanks in advance

Effectively, they speak of diplomas

Everything is explained properly here

http://www.altaformazionemusicale.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=14&Itemid=38

Hello

the degree called as such no longer exists because education has been regulated by the European Union in a homogeneous way for all member countries.

To clarify, just to clear up a series of misunderstandings for everyone, I will provide a quick summary outline.

School education has been divided into 8 levels.

- Level 1: primary school (our elementary schools)

- Level 2: lower secondary school (middle school)

- Level 3: upper secondary school (high school diploma/maturità)

Levels 4/5/6: 1st level higher diploma (bachelor's degree/three-year degree)

Level 7: 2nd level higher diploma (master's degree)

Level 8: Doctorate

masters are not regulated, in any country.

As far as the instrument diploma of the old conservatory system is concerned, these are equated to a 1st level higher diploma.

This is already a great concession, because many of the "old" graduates do not even have a high school diploma, so they are therefore "outlaws".

So, those who obtained a Second Level higher diploma have not wasted their time, since the old diploma is not and will not be equated to this qualification, also because the 2nd level diploma itself is a specialist qualification, meaning the curriculum is directed towards very specific subjects.

I learned all of this directly from the Director General of AFAM, Dr. Bruno Civello, whom I met personally about two weeks ago to discuss a series of projects to be carried out in collaboration with AFAM itself.

furthermore, I absolutely agree with him in not recognizing the master's degree for holders of the old system; moreover, under his direction, a scam law has also changed that equated the diploma from the school of fine arts to a civil engineer......

i hope I have clarified a lot!
nbye

F

Thank you Feliciano for the very exhaustive answer.

hi feliciano,

i would like to ask you for some clarification regarding what you just illustrated.

i often frequent forums of this type, and as far as I can, i try to follow

this tormented and troubled transitional phase of reorganizing musical qualifications.

i would like to understand if what you wrote refers to a specific law.

i would like to know because in another forum, from the discussions, it would seem that the situation

is exactly the opposite of what you are saying, namely:

the old diplomas (at least the ten-year ones) of the old system are CURRENTLY and TEMPORARILY
equivalent to a current 1st level diploma; as we await the approval of Bill 4822

(which has been approved in the senate and we are awaiting approval from the chamber).

@Feliciano

Let's look at it the other way around... Should those who followed the new system instead possess the same degree, equivalent to a first-level bachelor's degree, as those who followed the old system? It doesn't seem very fair to me...

@scalaquaranta

There are many documents; everything was defined by the Lisbon Treaty of 1997, but in particular by the Bologna Process of 1999. To start getting an idea, you can read this http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processo_di_Bologna and then thoroughly comb through this www.bolognaprocess.it where you will find various documents and links.

@thesimon

Why not? The new system transforms the conservatory into a university; to access it, one must possess a high school diploma as well as specific musical skills and abilities, both in theory and harmony and on the instrument.

For example, the piano program starts between the 7th and 8th year of the old system and ends like the old 10th... if that does not happen or should not happen, it is another problem, unfortunately. Previous training is done at music high schools and middle schools with a musical focus; obviously, discussions about their functioning are open :-)

Those who lose out would be the private students..... or rather those who teach privately and will no longer be able to boast of the designation "preparation for conservatory exams". Here, a dizzying controversy opens up, regarding which we can relaxedly tear each other apart if you want :-) however, the problem is, as always and as in all things, a cultural problem—not one of knowledge or rote learning obviously, but of social education.

I close with a provocation: do you think of art as if it were personal property or as something that only a few chosen ones can be part of? Well, I don't believe so. Of course talent is indisputable, but "the common man" can be educated in art. This is the absolute goal.

The ball is in your court

Bye

Feliciano

Feliciano wrote:

the problem, however, is, as always and as in all things, a cultural problem—not one of knowledge or mere facts, obviously, but of social education. I will close with a provocation: you think of art as if it were personal property or something that only a few chosen ones can be part of. Well, I don't believe that. Of course talent is indisputable, but "the common man" can be educated in art. This is the absolute goal. The ball is in your court. Ciao Feliciano

I agree with almost everything, but relegating musical training to music high schools and a university faculty does not move in this direction. Even though musical training in Italy has always been specialized, not aimed at the common man, today it is even more so since the possibility of studying as a private student no longer exists.

If we lived in a perfect world, music would be a subject present in all high school curricula, like physical education. And as musical education, the path should be theoretically-practically integrated, much like how the middle school curriculum should be. In this way, a common preparation would be ensured even for those who have not decided (at 13 years old...) to become professional musicians (or at least try to).

Then...

the discussion about things being taught well or poorly is a discussion rooted in reform. That is, if the training and recruitment of AFAM [Higher Education in Music, Arts and Dance] teachers are not reformed, how can we expect the new path to be similar to that of a degree? The status of a university institution is different from that of a Conservatory; recruitment is not discretionary, as it is for conservatories; those who are not full professors have a pressing obligation toward research in addition to teaching; there are no ministerial programs that are effectively unchangeable... to be serious institutions, AFAMs should require their teachers (both theoretical and practical) to undergo continuous training, competitions should be held again, there should be serious reflection on the curricula, and these (and other) problems can only be solved through legislation. These are not just bad practices; they are regulatory gaps.

thallo wrote:

the discussion about things taught well or taught poorly is a discussion rooted in the reform. That is, if the training and recruitment of AFAM teachers are not reformed, how can it be expected that the new path will be similar to that of a degree?

I read about the new reform (discretionary at the regional level) regarding the assignment of teaching positions ... no longer competitions but anarchic criteria. All in the hope of bringing the best teachers to the conservatories... regardless of scores

...to me, it all smells like marketing gimmicks.

@ Feliciano

But imagine if we wanted to fight, it's all just for the sake of discussion.

Feliciano wrote:

@thesimon

Previous training is done at music high schools and middle schools with a musical focus; obviously, discussions about how they function are open :-)

Eheheh yes, the problem is that in Rome there are only 2 if I'm not mistaken; a bit few...

Feliciano wrote:

The ones who lose out would be the private students.....or rather those who teach privately and who will no longer be able to boast of the label "preparation for conservatory exams". This opens up a dizzying controversy, regarding which we can relaxedly fight if you want :-) however, the problem is, as always and as in all things, a cultural problem, not one of knowledge or rote learning obviously, but of social education.

I'll close with a provocation: do you think of art as if it were personal property or as something that only a few chosen ones can be part of. Well, I don't believe so. Of course talent is indisputable, but "the common man" can be educated in art. This is the absolute goal.

Whether unwillingly, or perhaps willingly, with this provocation you prove me right. Restricting the circle in this way to only insiders is like wanting to say loudly: "Real music is only made in here"; and who said so? I wonder... This stance makes a branch of culture that was already on the brink even more elite. And fewer and fewer people will take the path of studying an instrument. Personally, I believe that before choosing a degree course, there is a need to evaluate possible job opportunities. Statistically, it is much easier to graduate in engineering and find a job than to graduate in piano at a conservatory and find a job; I believe this is undeniable.

Now, however, I would like to leave you with a provocation: this AFAM reform seems to me only a poor attempt to standardize rather than the conservatory system to the university, the salaries of conservatory teachers to the salaries of university professors, heavily penalizing a sector that was already in serious crisis by making it even more elite. Those who decided to take the path of music, if at the end of their studies they hadn't become a concert artist, could have turned to private teaching; now not even that... I believe that as always in Italy, maneuvers are not made for the people but "ad personam" or anyway aimed at money rather than the collective good.

Probably it was right to change some programs that were even exaggerated in some cases (30 preludes and fugues from The Well-Tempered Clavier speak for themselves), but in cutting the legs out from under private candidates, I haven't truly been able to see anything constructive, and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the loud voice is: "Music, real music, is only made in here". If I have missed some hidden motivation, please let me know; after all, one writes here above to compare views and learn from others.

Passing the ball back

It's absurd, but it is in line with the tradition of conservatories, at least from what I know.

I am speaking mainly about the subjects that would fall under my competence, the theoretical ones. Subjects such as Poetic and Dramatic Literature and Music History are assigned in a way that is too different from how they would be at a university. Furthermore, this is a vicious cycle that is difficult to break, because if I evaluate the academic curriculum of a music history professor by looking at a clarinet graduate, what am I expecting? The logic by which distinct INSTITUTES exist at universities aims to avoid similar issues. An institute is a collection of similar subjects that examines teaching, research, the selection of doctoral students, faculty, and qualifications. In an average-to-small Italian conservatory, there are AT MOST two music history professors, who don't even interact with each other, who do not conduct research, who very often do not have a PhD, and who do not plan their teaching since they have no one to whom they are accountable. How can it be expected that the musicological training of a graduate in Vibo Valentia be comparable to that of a graduate from Sapienza?!

The problem with theoretical subjects (or let's say those not related to the instrument) is gigantic because the reform has led to their multiplication, especially in the two-year programs.

An example from home... here is the training plan for the two-year horn program at the Milan conservatory:

http://www.consmilano.it/fileadmin/storage/didattica/bienni_corretti/Scuola_di_Corno_-_DCSL19_-_CORNO.pdf

among the other "strange" subjects there are:

-musical philology

-history of the musical band

-organology

-techniques of expression and body awareness (?!)

-organology

This, on the other hand, is the Monopoli conservatory:

http://www.conservatoriodimonopoli.org/images/stories/Ordinamenti_Biennio/Corno_solistico_Biennio_II_Livello.pdf

obviously the choice is smaller, but there are something like 30 credits in two years of music history, musical analysis, instrument technology, the always mysterious "semiography"... but do you have any idea how difficult it is to find 30 credits of music history even in musicology faculties?! And musicology degree courses in Italy are very few, unlike conservatories, which are an excessive number

I think THALLO has focused on the issue better and I share what he wrote....

The Italian problem is always the same: pleasing everyone who raises their hand and never implementing reforms that could straighten out situations.

I reiterate that the problem is cultural; I believe we should change the perspective of evaluation, change the evaluation parameters.......

Of course, it would be nice if there were the possibility of having an organized educational system.....with music present in all schools of every level......with the possibility to play any instrument and any musical genre......having conservatories that update study and exam programs every 2/4 years......assistance for entering the world of work.........organizations that work industrially for the dissemination and development of art in the world.....the possibility to conduct research in the field of music education and artistic education in general.....a place where you can study wherever and with whomever you want, which then gives you the possibility to demonstrate what you are worth and who you are.........and it would be nice........

I am asking for PianoExpert's opinion!!!!!!!

I agree with Feliciano on the "dream" of being able to choose optimal situations to "show what you are worth" and on the desire to have more organized structures.

As a man of the 1900s, I believe a thicket of regulations and "superstructures" is being created. First or second level, or fourth or third... in short, there is a risk of having, as in the University, a good number of "degree holders" who could know very little about how to "do". There are those who make Music by talent and have no degree at all. Very little can be taught to such a subject... unless their Teacher is... Greater than them. Then there are "gifted" elements, who "could do more"... if they were well guided. Then there are the "obstinate" ones, who, despite having no talent at all, persist. Some of these elements, of the first, second, and third kind could, ...for various reasons, go on to hold teaching positions in the conservatory institution, ...where "Music is made". Perhaps all three could find themselves in difficulty as teachers, due to "unexplainable ability", for "incompleteness", ...for "imbecility". In turn, some of them will generate and "form" new Musicians, and so on. Sometimes successes, but at other times, much damage due to "inadequacy". Beyond the small gratuitous unkindness, which should absolutely not be manifested... I would like to simplify. One is not born a teacher, one becomes one. Many can be good or great Musicians, but to become teachers they must test themselves. Furthermore, I do not believe much in "objective methods" of the type: 10 levels, when you have passed no. 1, you move to no. 2 etc.... when you have reached 10, you know how to play. Nor in the "Do-it-yourself" method.

Art, Music, Theater, Painting, Dance, etc. ...cannot be separated from the overall artistic culture and more. This comprehensive training must begin immediately, from the early years.

Teaching practiced differently than how it has often been done until now must be more personalized. There is no right sequence for everyone. Everyone has their own postures, their "vices", their qualities, their defects, their perspectives, their inclinations.

It would be appropriate to work hard on the training of a Teacher. "The Schools" and "the teachings passed down by the Great Masters" have been lost.

Phen, perhaps, I believe everyone should experiment and understand firsthand why certain things happen or do not happen, knowing how to recognize them and how to correct them, then knowing how to speak about their specific Classical, Jazz, rock, or whatever it may be, framing the atmosphere, the character, the style, the sensations, the History. And what can be said about the deep understanding of theoretical structures!!!

I see the learning of Music as a large and diverse garden: Not all plants will ever be perfect... almost to the point of seeming unreal, but they will be beautiful and, above all, "well nourished".

We often hear much of what I have poorly explained during Masterclasses. Too late. From the very first piece of Mikrokosmos, one must talk about Music and make the Student understand "where they are". Then, gradually, yes, they will learn to play a scale, an arpeggio... or they will do it by instinct, or they will never manage to do it.

Years ago I was of the opinion that "everything should be for everyone". I have revisited, perhaps not very humbly, this concept. Talent is the foundation and through this one must, in my opinion, become aware of what one is capable of doing and how.

So many words! I always use an illustrious phrase that I like very much which goes something like this: "if you liked what you have read, please be kind to the one who wrote it; if, instead, we have managed to bore you... believe that it was not done on purpose" (A. Manzoni)

Thanks to everyone for having drawn blood from the stones, now the scenario is much clearer to me

Long live our PIANOEXPERT!!

greetings

saverio

Hello everyone, I have just registered for this forum because I read this discussion and became curious...

Since a pianist friend of mine is among the last to be enrolled in the old conservatory system, which is almost at its end, I wanted to clarify if we understood correctly.

She pointed out to me that at the end of her 10th year, her Conservatory diploma will indeed count as a Master's degree (meaning a two-year period in the new system)...

To support her thesis, she showed me this PDF published by the Italian Senate!

http://www.senato.it/service/PDF/PDFServer/BGT/00619897.pdf

I would like to know what you think...

Since this post has confused my ideas a bit...

If it's not asking too much, I ask you to help me understand a little more...

Feliciano wrote:

Hi

the degree called as such no longer exists because education has been regulated by the European Union in a homogeneous way for all member countries.

To clarify, a bit for everyone, to clear up a series of misunderstandings, I will provide a quick summary scheme.

School education has been divided into 8 levels.

- Level 1: primary school (our elementary schools)

- Level 2: lower secondary school (middle school)

- Level 3: upper secondary school (high school diploma/maturità)

Levels 4/5/6: 1st level higher diploma (Bachelor's degree/three-year degree)

Level 7: 2nd level higher diploma (Master's degree)

Level 8: Doctorate

masters are not regulated, in any country.

As far as the instrument diploma of the old conservatory system is concerned, these are equated to a 1st level higher diploma.

This is already a great concession, because many of the "old" graduates do not even have a high school diploma, so they are "outlaws".

SO those who obtained a Second Level higher diploma have not wasted time since the old diploma is not and will not be equated to this title, also because the 2nd level diploma itself is a specialist qualification, meaning the study plan is directed towards very specific subjects.

I learned all this directly from the Director General of AFAM, Dr. Bruno Civello, whom I met personally about two weeks ago to discuss a series of projects to be carried out in collaboration with AFAM itself.

furthermore, I absolutely agree with him in not recognizing the Master's degree for holders of the old system; moreover, under his direction, a scam law has also changed that equated the diploma of the school of fine arts to a civil engineer......

i hope I have clarified a lot!
nbye

F

Your friend has just shown you a bill that was approved in the Senate but not yet approved in the Chamber of Deputies. In our political system, laws are drafted in the Senate, discussed, and eventually approved in the Senate, but they do not become full laws unless they are also approved in the Chamber. Therefore, for the moment, the old-system diploma is equivalent to a Level I degree. In the future, if the Legislative Decree that you read—which was approved in the Senate—is also approved in the Chamber, it will count as a Level II degree.

I hope this has cleared up your doubt.

PS. There is an error in what Feliciano wrote. Former graduates who do not possess a high school diploma are not at all breaking the law. There is a clause that clarifies even this point. A diploma from a music conservatory counts as a Level I degree only if the academy graduate possesses the requirements, namely, the high school diploma...