Does Classical Harmony Really Have Nothing More To Say?

I share much of what CromaDiBrera wrote, but ultimately the master must also be able to provide effective technical tools ... which should transcend merely personal content.

Ratatouille89 wrote:

however, ultimately the teacher must also be able to provide effective technical tools ... which should transcend merely personal content.

Of course, that is what I was saying: the teacher gives you all the technical tools at their disposal, so that you can use them as you please (and not as they do).

The tail end of this discussion made me think of good old Zehnder and why his students always used to get straight 10s.

Without opening astronomical discussions on the pedagogical implications of giving a grade (whether right or wrong) and without getting into discussions about sycophancy and meritocracy that could be opened (...but also if interested)... the thought behind it seems interesting to me, which probably responds to Dante and the fact that many often wonder what a teacher should be like.

In my opinion, getting 10s on a report card isn't everything in life

Dilettante wrote:

In my opinion, a 10 on a report card isn't everything in life

Probably much more is needed

My composition teacher did exactly the same as CromaDiBrera's, which is, to put it briefly, he never got into the merits of my music and in my opinion that is right because sooner or later, inevitably, the composer's music comes out, or at least its fundamental characteristics, no matter how much he strives to write something different or suitable for the times or again or etc. ...

so to all the teachers who try to shape students by saying "write old-fashioned", "tonality is finished" and amenities of that sort, I would say: CHANGE PROFESSIONS!

In my opinion, a teacher shouldn't just make you do what you like, even in terms of content, and I think seeing only tonal harmony is necessary but insufficient.

When you graduate, you are a teacher, and if you happen to get a student who likes serialism? What do you do, pass them on to a colleague?

A it seems generally unprofessional to me.

BackSpace wrote:

In my opinion, a teacher should not only make us do what we like, even in terms of content, and seeing only tonal harmony—I think it is necessary but insufficient.

When you graduate, you are a teacher, and if you happen to have a student who likes serialism? What do you do, pass them on to a colleague?

A to me, it seems generally unprofessional.

i agree ... in fact there is a big difference between teaching and imposing, as Dante's teacher seems to do by upholding what we have read.

If one of my students loves serialism, that's perfectly fine ... I am nonetheless obliged to teach them everything and I must force them to write in a certain way, but only if it is required by the study exercises ... this is because the student must know the entire subject matter, in order to then be able to express themselves in the genre that pleases them most.

What is certain is that I would never dream of making such statements with a student.

The teacher must just be a teacher and nothing more.

Dilettante wrote:

In my opinion, a 10 on a report card isn't everything in life

I can fully agree with you, but it is useless to fool ourselves. On average, the conversations heard in the hallways during exam periods are all based on this content and the hope of getting a good grade. I think there is a sort of automatic association such as... good grade... better preparation... more competence... greater future professionalism.

Anyway, the crux of the matter was not this; whoever wanted Zehnder probably didn't do it properly for the grade or these automaticisms.

In my opinion, what might be interesting is what Zehnder asked of the person interested in entering his class; he had the aspirant prepare a written piece where the candidate had to list the actions and behaviors they were willing to implement (to the fullest extent) to be worthy of a 10 from him.

Ultimately, he was asking for a formal act, which became a moral "obligation," through which the candidate committed to participating in his courses, and it could not be otherwise since the list of things to do was written by their own hand.

The core issue is that the candidate did not know or only intuited what that uninhibited writing could be used for and wrote as much as possible... but lo and behold, those were all the little things that later allowed them to stop wondering what their ideal teacher should be like... but rather what they had to do to truly learn.

Oracolo wrote:

It probably requires much more

Exactly, aside from the insights of the other forum members, I say that one must also cultivate the ability to be masters of oneself—that is, not having a passive approach, facing things as if they then had to be explained to someone else, and therefore becoming curious even about what we feel belongs to us less, but which will necessarily be an enrichment from which one will draw at the right moment.

rstrauss wrote:

so to all the teachers trying to shape students by saying "write old man" "the key is finished" and amenities of that kind, I would say: CHANGE PROFESSION!

No excuse me, but if someone is studying they cannot receive a comment like this: "write old man"... if you are learning.

The problem is something else, the content and the setup of the course...

Frank wrote:

one must also cultivate the ability to be masters of oneself

But if one were capable, they wouldn't go to lessons, would they?

CromaDiBrera wrote:

Given that I do not attend a conservatory, but rather a private teacher

I am forming the idea that perhaps it is the best path, so at least I can choose my own teacher

Dante wrote:

No excuse, but if someone is studying they cannot receive a comment like this: "write old"... if you are learning.

The problem is something else, the content and the setup of the course...

Even if you are studying, the characteristics of your music are perceived anyway, and this is something the teacher must absolutely not meddle in.

Which is instead what they must do regarding errors and everything concerning the subjects of study.

The teacher in this case is a composition technician who must teach the subject to someone who does not know it.

Excuse me, but a technique can influence the content.

If you are to approach dodecaphony, even if something tonal comes out of it (let's talk about that), what does it mean not to meddle?

Same for serialism, same for minimalism.

The contents are different and often go hand in hand with aesthetics.

I forgot

rstrauss wrote:

The teacher in this case is a composition technician who must teach the subject to someone who does not know it.

Exactly, if they don't know it ...?!?

And then excuse me, but if someone doesn't know something, how can they determine whether one is right or wrong? Then maybe they even start to enjoy it

Let's clear things up a bit; if the students decided the content, we'd be in trouble.

To become composers, one must be able to measure oneself at all levels and not just based on what we like or what we are naturally inclined toward. One follows their path, gets their diploma, and only then does what they like. There's not much to be done about it... other paths are for enthusiasts

Valchiria wrote:

Let's clear things up a bit; if the student were to decide on the content, we would be in trouble.

To become composers, one must know how to measure oneself at all levels and not just based on what we like or what we are naturally inclined toward. One follows their path, gets their diploma, and only then does what they like. There is little to be done... other paths are for enthusiasts.

I agree, but it's different from stating that tonality is dead

Instead, I believe that a conscientious teacher can and must also say if a type of writing or general management of a piece from all points of view is old; there is no need to take offense. If I walk into a shop and ask to dress like Louis XIV with a wig, cane, and so on, they will tell me that such a way of dressing is "old," it's ridiculous, people haven't dressed like that for 500 years; so why, if I write something in the style of Vivaldi (a bad copy, of course...), can no one be authorized to say that it is an old way of writing? A piece like that can only be credible as a philological reconstruction or an exercise in style, so students should stop acting as judges of their teachers; this is the degeneration resulting from the prevailing and superficial "goodism" into which the school has fallen, where students are the "customers" of a shop and as such are always right, and if they don't study it's because the teacher isn't good, doesn't know how to explain, or something else.... If a teacher goes so far as to say that tonality is dead, one should ask them why they claim this, not tell them to change professions, and anyway the answer is simple: just analyze the pieces that win composition competitions, or the production of contemporary composers; if almost everyone writes by moving away from tonality, perhaps there is a reason, perhaps it is the aesthetic of these centuries, waiting for perhaps someone to raise the bar toward new musical goals, but I don't think this will happen with a little waltz in the style of Chopin (always a bad copy) or with a piece featuring basso continuo... so instead of taking offense, if the teacher tells you that you are writing "old-fashioned," maybe he is right....

geppino12575 wrote:

Instead, I believe that a conscientious teacher can and must also say if a type of writing or general management of the piece from all points of view is old [...] maybe he is right...

TEverything you assert is sacrosanct, but only once it has been established that the Maestro is a good Maestro. And this, unfortunately, when one is at the beginning of their studies, is very difficult to do... I thank heaven for always having had excellent teachers, advised step by step by just as many excellent teachers, but I have seen many companions/colleagues in the hands of terrible teachers and totally unaware of it... it is not that simple.