I wrote this myself!

Flower's galop

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geppino12575

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Opening post by geppino12575

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282
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Nola

Hello, I would like to propose to you a piece of mine from a few years ago, a piece for a version of the ballet Alice in Wonderland.

It was made with the following libraries: Berlin Woodwinds for the woodwinds, EastWest for brass (I will certainly switch to Sample Modeling with the new system), EastWest for percussion and LASS 2.0 for strings.

I hope I have put into practice well the things learned from Simone Renzi regarding audio, mixing, and mastering.

I know there are details to refine that could be better; for example, the LASS library performs best when loading samples A, B, and C individually for every articulation of every single section (e.g., vl1 leg A, vl1 leg B, vl1 leg C; vl1 stacc A, vl1 stacc B, etc....), but due to the 32-bit software (Cubase 5) I cannot expand too much and therefore I opted for the full mix samples, which are a bit of a compromise. I am waiting for Cubase 7.5 to arrive.

One thing I am sure of: now I am much more aware of certain things, I can choose; not all choices can be pleasing, but when there is at least a minimum level of knowledge at the base, one is also more confident in one's choices and aware of what can be improved.

As usual, your comments are most welcome, thank you.

s galop (2).mp3

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Reply 2 by peppe

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With the libraries ??? If it hadn't been for the snare drum sounding blatantly fake, I wouldn't have realized that it was a processing done with libraries, but I would have believed it was a recording of a real orchestra. Are you pulling our leg and overdubbing with some drum library onto a recording of a real orchestra? Something is fishy here... In either case, compliments both for the piece, which is truly very pleasant, and for the sound, which I think is practically indistinguishable from a real orchestra, except for the snare. Provided that this isn't a deception.

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Reply 3 by geppino12575

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Of course, it's with the libraries. Thank you for the comment: I have found many who do not like the East West snare drum, although at the moment I wouldn't know how to replace it....no real snare drum sounds that high-pitched, I read somewhere about this sample, in fact I tried to darken it a bit with the EQ but evidently the result is not believable....

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Reply 4 by Piccinesco

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Villanova di Guidonia

Have you ever listened to the Dhf superior library? There are about 80,000 drum samples, mostly acoustic (standard), there might be snares similar to those used in an orchestra.

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Reply 5 by Frank

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Well dosed and well made!

A 1'25'' I would have let the ending linger a bit more, it seems a bit "cut" to me and in fact I would like to know if it was a choice. I have listened to it several times and it always has the same effect on me, I wish I had more time to savor it

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Reply 7 by Bianca

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Torino

It seems like a nice job to me, really realistic geppino.

What do you mean by the new Sample Modeling system? Have you ever taken VSL into consideration? Listening to the individual samples, they seem truly exceptional to me and perhaps superior to EW. I am aware of one thing, however: having the best libraries is not enough to obtain the best results; it requires a lot of work and a very deep knowledge of the subject.

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Reply 8 by geppino12575

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Nola

Obviously everyone who works with libraries knows Vienna, which are by far the best existing samples in terms of realism and number of articulations; they don't have that typically "American" sound found in almost all others. I own a few, for example an old version of the solo strings, and they sound great. The problem is purely economic, they cost a fortune....and they are also a bit difficult to program.

Sample Modeling is a company that produces mostly wind samples, especially brass and sax, although recently they have also turned to woodwinds; they are single instruments, but they can be put together to form sections. They are not designed to be orchestral, but rather for jazz situations, however I have heard exceptional things online made with these libraries and they are unsurpassed in terms of control, responding magnificently to various controllers (much more than EW or Cinebrass, the latter goes a bit wherever it wants if I'm being honest... eheh). They are completely dry, so you have to recreate the ambience and the stereophonic positioning, but this shouldn't be a problem, even Vienna is dry.

My definitive template (which is not the one heard in this track) should include: Berlin Woodwinds for woodwinds, Sample Modeling for brass, EW for percussion, Spitfire for piano, LASS for strings, with the possibility of doubling the brass with Cinebrass; all on Cubase 7.5 (I've been waiting for it for a week) and ProTools 10 (I will move to 11 using the Educational offer), Windows 7 64-bit, 3.4GHz, 16GB of RAM (after having upgraded...). As plugins I use Waves, Ozone 5, 2C Audio.

As for the fact that there is a lot of work to do, this is beyond doubt; I tinker with this stuff from morning till night and without Simone's lessons I wouldn't have gone anywhere, these are not things that can be improvised or learned alone, a bit like traditional composition.

I thank everyone for the comments, I feel there are quite a few things still to correct, both in terms of MIDI programming and mixing; the room could be more realistic, the dynamic ranges more pronounced, and the overall sound is perhaps a bit mid-heavy and too much in your face; I should move it back a bit, for this last thing it might be enough to act on the % of dry/wet reverb during mastering....

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Reply 11 by Thesimon

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Ariccia, RM

I haven't intervened until now because I preferred to see the opinions of other friends first.

I am pleased to observe that despite having compressed so many notions into a hyper-accelerated course, the results are visible in terms of feedback from other members, but above all, they can be felt! Most importantly...

In reality, we would have had much more to observe, and there would have been much to deepen regarding the things we discussed. At least now you have a general overview of the problems encountered in the studio and you have well learned the steps to take during the mixing phase and those to take during the mastering phase.

The result seems more than good to me, considering that it is all the product of libraries.

When working with libraries, I like to appeal to a rhetorical phrase that fits perfectly in this context: "The whole is not equal to the sum of its parts". Having to record note by note, many "frequency events" are lost which, conversely, occur at the moment when the full orchestra is recorded. Furthermore, we must remember that the choices made by companies producing these libraries are aimed more towards increasing monetary revenue; therefore, even the recording choices for the samples (analog outboard gear, microphones, positioning, room acoustics) are made to create general-purpose products, meaning they can be decently applied to various musical contexts: film music, classical music, light music, pop, rock, etc.

I recall, in fact, that every musical style requires different outboard gear, microphones, and positioning. If I were to record a Jazz group, I would never dream of recording a piano with a preamp that is too crystalline and two Shoeps positioned very far from the piano. The point is that changing recording techniques and positioning changes the sound immensely.

Why does Vienna sound good with classical music? Because the developers thought to create a library to be used for an orchestra (typically classical). For a rock track, I wouldn't use the Vienna violins; they would seem significantly better to me if I used East West in this particular context.

All this to say that starting from libraries, one cannot expect to properly re-simulate the recording of a real orchestra; there will always be instruments we don't like, on whose sound we can certainly work, but if they do not possess certain frequencies, they simply do not have them, and we cannot invent them ourselves. By equalizing instruments, we increase or decrease the contribution of certain frequencies in the spectrum that contribute to the sound, but you understand well that even with the best equalizer, we could not reproduce the sound of a Stradivari with a 100-euro violin! Timbral differences depend on all the harmonics in the Fourier spectrum, which is continuous, and also on those components in the frequency spectrum that constitute noise (for example, the friction of the bow hair on the strings produces other frequency components) which contribute to the realization of the instrument's timbre. From here, it becomes easy to intuit that with an equalizer that has even 6 bands, we cannot have control over an infinite number of individual frequency components, and therefore we must settle for modifying the content of a certain range of frequencies, a range that on parametric equalizers is defined by the selectivity of the Q value. Then we should also spend a few words on dynamic capture and bit depth. In this case too, we would have to talk about the "conveniences" of using a higher number of bits, provided that the preamps were calibrated to be able to capture the maximum possible dynamics at the maximum number of bits, which is by no means a given.

The considerations we could make could go on for hours, but I will stop here.

Instead, I will move on to give my impressions of this master.

Yes, perhaps a little mid-heavy; not a big deal, in these cases EQs do their job excellently, that is not the problem.

I would have worked a little more on the MIDI for the expressiveness of the instruments, automating the value relative to expression in the strings, as in the winds, and in all other orchestral instruments. We must simulate attacks and ensure they don't sound blatantly fake. Fakeness in these contexts is felt especially during the attack and sustain phases; especially for strings, one can do a lot.
As far as releases are concerned, normally all samples are good enough and do not require further manipulation.

For other instruments, the fakeness seems evident regarding the sound. The snare drum, as someone else was writing, is just fake. In this extreme case, I fear there is nothing better to do than change the sample. One must always keep in mind during mixing, the"}

frequency bands in which individual instruments operate, and avoid these frequencies from compromising the bands in which other instruments operate. In this way, at the end of the mix, a complete spectrum filled with all frequencies will be guaranteed. At the time of the mix bounce, we must have a division of the spatial zones where the instruments are located and a division of their frequency tasks (this ensures that all instruments are intelligible); it will then be the mastering phase that glues and uniformizes these divisions, recreating a realistic environment.

In any case, I listened again to the file from the previous version and it is evident that there were a large number of problems that you seem to have solved very well, having a albeit summary awareness of the phenomena that acoustically occur within an orchestra and more generally in an environment, so as to be able to recreate them thanks to the use of audio technology. What matters most to me, in fact, is not putting a person in a position to perform a mix or mastering by mechanically applying plugins in a row, but putting them in a position to examine the problems, understand their causes, and remedy them by applying the solutions we have seen.

I was pleased to have been useful to you and it gratifies me greatly to have been able to listen to how much difference there is between a pre- and post-'course' mix.

Congratulations again on the result...

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Reply 12 by geppino12575

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282
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I tried to apply a few changes (nothing major) to the piece, enhancing some dynamic excursions (using cc11) and pushing the overall sound back a bit. I then gave it just a touch of high and low frequencies overall and removed 1 dB from the mids. I read the note regarding string attacks: I am aware of this; I believe a solution could be having samples with various types of attacks, i.e., a legato sound, a staccato, and a spiccato, whereas in this piece, for space reasons, I didn't use the staccato but only legato and spiccato, which sometimes has an attack unsuitable for a musical phrase with a melodic character.

Then, when I can use all the RAM available (I am still waiting for this blessed Cubase 7.5), I will load the three samples of each LASS patch separately (leg A, leg B, leg C, stacc A, B, C, etc...) and record each part of the strings three times, in order to increase realism by relying on a series of factors: small differences in intonation, in the response to controllers, and the fact that if sample A has a certain sound due to round robin, sample B might have a different RR, whereas now using full mix samples, the RR applies to the entire sample in the same way (I hope I explained myself properly.....). As for the snare drum, I really don't know what to do, I don't own another percussion library.....

I deliberately did not use a very long reverb, because the piece is bright and I didn't want it to get too muddy.

I think that at the current stage, I can't do any better than this.....

Flowers galop 20-09.mp3

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Reply 13 by Thesimon

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4,504
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Ariccia, RM

I have no way to listen because I am out with my iPad, but I am sure you will have greatly improved the points indicated. Now do not dwell any longer on this piece, which is already excellent; my suggestions were aimed more than anything at nitpicking... We await new pieces! Try experimenting with new libraries; you will realize that sometimes, by adjusting the sound of certain libraries that don't excite you upon first listen—when contextualized in an organic way, reproducing environmental variables and paying attention to everything we discussed—they will have very realistic sounds that are consistent with the genre you are about to mix.

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