Horn notation

Both the English horn and the French horn are transposing instruments; they must be written a perfect 5th above the actual note to be played.

If you are in D major, for the horn part (both English and French), you should write F#_C#_G# in the clef, as if you were in A major.

Below is the "comparison" between the key of D major and its transposition equivalent, a perfect 5th above (in written notes and not actual notes) for the two horns.

- D_E_F#_G_A_B_C#_D

- A_B_C#_D_E_F#_G#_A

You must take into consideration the succession of tones and semitones:

for which if you have to make the strings perform the note (for example),

if the horn must also perform it, you will write F#.

First of all, thank you for the answer.

Just for completeness, there is the horn and the English horn (the "French horn" is a distortion born from translation; in Italian, 'corno' is the horn... and that's it)

I am sorry for explaining it poorly, but I meant at the level of key signature.

It is written as 'Piccinesco' describes, but you don't put anything in the key signature

For example, Liszt

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/b/b1/IMSLP60783-PMLP43117-Liszt_Musikalische_Werke_1_Band_4_8.pdf

Dante wrote:

In the meantime, thank you for the response.

Just for completeness, there is the horn and the English horn (the "French horn" is a distortion born from translation; in Italian, the corno is the corno... and that's it)

I am sorry for explaining it poorly, but I meant at the level of the key signature.

For horns, generally no alteration is placed in the key signature - alterations are placed directly in front of the notes, if necessary, even though some modern composers place them in the key signature - whereas the English horn behaves like all other transposing instruments (see clarinet, for example), so if it plays in A major (its key), it has three sharps in the key signature (but since we are in D major, "the rest of the world" only has two).

Just for completeness: the "French horn" certainly exists and is what we call "corno-and-that's-it" and what the English call "french horn": "English horn" is the distortion due to translation, because in French it was "cor anglé," meaning "horn with an angle" - see mouthpiece - which is pronounced the same as "anglais," that is, precisely, "English." You know how it goes...

Piccinesco wrote:

Both the English horn and the French horn

I have so many horn players as friends... don't tell them that in Italian the horn is called 'corno francese'... they get very angry.

First of all, thank you

Carlos wrote:

For horns, generally no key alterations are used - accidentals are placed directly in front of the notes,

Curiosity, even the B-flat?

Carlos wrote:

Just for completeness: the “French horn” certainly exists and it is what we call “horn-and-that's-it” and what the English call “french horn”: “English horn” is a distortion due to translation, because in French it was “cor anglé” meaning “horn with an angle” - see mouthpiece - which is pronounced the same as “anglais”, that is, precisely, “English”. You know how it goes...

I meant exactly this, perhaps I wrote it poorly, I meant that linguistically “French horn” does not exist, whoever uses it does so improperly... because it's enough to say horn

Frank wrote:

I have so many horn players as friends... don't tell them that in Italian the horn is called 'corno francese' ...they get very angry.

A chi lo dici, una volta mi hanno tirato 2 palle così...

Dante wrote:

Thanks in the meantime

Curiosity, also the B-flat?

Why not? But be careful: the written B-flat corresponds to:

1) E-flat if you use a horn in F,

2) D-flat if you use a horn in E-flat,

3) D-natural if you use a horn in E.

Do not confuse written notes with resulting notes!

Curiosity Carlos, I only use the horn in F... but are those you mention legacies of the ancient ones (as the one in D, C, etc., could be) or does a horn player today commonly always have that triad of instruments at hand?

Ludovica wrote:

Curiosity Carlos, I only use the horn in F... but are those you mention legacies of the ancient ones (as could be the one in D, in C, etc.) or does a horn player today commonly always have that triad of instruments at hand?

No: today horn players use the double chromatic horn in F/Eb which can play everything. Horn players transpose automatically on their instrument, but naturally the parts remain written "in E", or "in D" etc., so the issue of accidentals must be understood deeply. It seemed to me that Dante's question concealed a not-too-rare misunderstanding: he asked me if it is necessary to also write the B-flat, and this made me think of a very frequent error, namely "the horn in F 'already has the B-flat inside' so there is no need to write it" (something that is often heard said about clarinets as well: "the A clarinet 'already has three sharps inside'"). This mess (because that is what it is!) is aggravated by certain teachers who explain instruments exactly like that!

In reality, to understand the issue of accidentals in transposing instruments, one should only consider the interval for transposition, i.e., for example: the horn in F sounds a fifth below compared to how it is written. Stop! By setting up the reasoning in these terms, everything becomes much clearer, because it becomes evident that if, for example, I have a score in B-flat major, the horn in F will be written, de facto, in F major (a fifth above, precisely), so instead of having two flats in the key signature, it will have only one (the B-flat, precisely, the first of the flats in order of appearance) - whether or not it is customary to write it in the key signature is another matter entirely, but it is certainly needed, and it must be added every time it is necessary!

If I understood correctly from your last example, the B-flat is implied so it is never marked in the various measures of the piece; all other accidentals (including E-flat) are... without putting anything in the clef.

Right?

Dante wrote:

If I understood correctly in your last example, the B-flat is implied so it is never marked in the various measures of the piece, all other accidentals are (including E-flat) ... by not putting anything in the clef.

Right?

No, you haven't understood at all. There is no "implied" accidental (since when?): I wrote exactly the opposite! Why should B-flat be implied, I don't understand! And why not F-sharp?

Let's do a practical example, otherwise we won't get anywhere.

You have an F horn.

I want an E-flat major scale to come out of that horn.

What do you write? (note by note).

Adler advises the composer to write in real notation for the first draft, where it is better to have the immediacy of harmonies, and then, when writing the final score, to write in transposition and without accidentals in the key, as is practice, only for trumpets and horns.

The conductor does not need to analyze the harmonies deeply, and transposition creates no problem, since the conductor has a visual perception of the score in its verticality, which is what they need.

Carlos will be able to confirm.

Curiosity... but why is the horn different in this regard, for example, from other transposing instruments? For the others, the key signature must be indicated in the clef. Is it perhaps a "historical" issue? But which one?

I have never

Dante wrote:

Curiosity... but why is the horn different in this regard, for example, from other transposing instruments? For others, the key signature must be indicated in the clef. Perhaps it is a "historical" issue? But which one?

done a deep dive into the matter, but since horns were originally natural—that is, without valves—this could be the reason.

rstrauss wrote:

I never looked into the matter deeply, but since horns were originally natural—that is, without valves—this could be the reason.

Exactly. For both horns and trumpets, the custom of not indicating anything in the key signature stems precisely from the fact that natural horns and trumpets always played only the "good" notes, namely the tonic, dominant, third degree, and little else... Practically no note of the natural scale was altered, especially in trumpets to tell the truth: let us consider, for example, that in his entire compositional life Beethoven will never write an "E-flat" (that is, an altered third degree) for the trumpets, not even in the Ninth. Once chromatic horns and trumpets were introduced, the custom remained, and the change of key is indicated in the score (with the notation, e.g., "in D") by adding the necessary accidentals from time to time.

rstrauss wrote:

The conductor does not need to analyze the harmonies deeply and transposition creates no problem, as the conductor has a visual perception of the score in its verticality, which is what they need. Carlos can confirm.

I do not agree with the fact that the conductor does not need to analyze the harmonies deeply, not at all, quite the opposite! but it is also true that the habit of reading transposing instruments makes reading the score a "normal" thing over time. In reality, I have sometimes found it more complicated to get used to reading scores (e.g., Prokofiev's) where the horns are written in concert pitch "for convenience". It is, however and always, a matter of habit, nothing more and nothing transcendental. It is more complicated - so to speak - to read the horns in Mozart's 550 (because one is in B-flat and one is in G) than it is to read them in a Debussy score, where they are, conventionally, in F (even if full of accidentals along the way), for the simple reason that, in that area of the score, it is not customary to find instruments in B-flat or in G...