Mannerisms At the Piano

(HQ) Transcendental Etude No.8, Wilde Jagd (Berezovsky)

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... terribile

Marta23 wrote:

(HQ) Transcendental Etude No.8, Wilde Jagd (Berezovsky)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUJVPKMFAlo&feature=youtu.be

... terrible

But are you referring to the piece or the performance? It's not clear...

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I was referring to the pianist, I think he would have achieved the same result without those jerks, the movements of the head, of the mouth ... a good sweat ... and indeed...

Nice idea to talk about the mannerisms of composers ... what were you thinking of and why did the doubt arise?

... even the topic title lends itself to it

Marta23 wrote:

I was referring to the pianist; I think he would have achieved the same result without those jerks, the movements of the head, of the mouth ... a good sweat ... and indeed...

It's a nice idea to talk about the mannerisms of composers ... what were you thinking of and why did the doubt arise?

... even the topic title lends itself to it

Ah, I see. The doubt arose because when I thought of "mannerisms at the piano," I had understood solely and exclusively musical mannerisms (the kind that can be noticed even with your eyes closed, so to speak) and not the attitudes of the performer which, frankly, don't interest me all that much. Since Berezovsky, from an interpretative point of view, is anything but mannered, it seemed strange to me that you found him "terrible," but if you are referring to the fact that he sweats and moves, well... I would be inclined to tell you that, ultimately, those are somewhat his own business, or not?

I, Carlos, frankly wouldn't be 100% sure; everything is explained excellently by Sandor Gyorgy in his book "How to Play the Piano", between pages 352 and 359. A few pages, but they exemplify well how some mannerisms are harmless and others a bit more reprehensible, consisting of throwing all our energy onto the keyboard, venting tension and anger in a continuous and habitual phase of struggle, violence, pressure, percussion, or massaging the keys. The piano is absolutely not made to withstand this explosion of energy being poured onto it. The quality of the sound and the quality of the music itself suffer as a result. It is true that sometimes this violence appears well-disguised, but no less do both the voice of the instrument and the pianist's muscular system suffer its negative effects.

Then one can enter and leave the stage as one pleases, moo and blow while playing, wave the head (you know the story of yes-yes versus no-no?), roll the eyes as you like, go fly-hunting Allevi-style... the important thing is not to damage the sound.

ttw wrote:

l'it is important that the sound does not get damaged.

Alright, but here we are talking about Berezovsky, not, in general, about movements that are more or less harmful to the piano.

In my opinion, he knows for himself if his sound is ruined or not if he moves his head.

ttw wrote:

Then one can enter and exit the stage as they please, moo and blow while playing, wave their head (you know the story of yes yes versus no no?), roll their eyes as they like, go fly-hunting like Allevi...

One could elaborate; in general, I find many attitudes useless... in fact, they even annoy me. I don't know how to say it, they distract me

Stellina wrote:

One can delve deeper, I generally find many attitudes useless... in fact, they even annoy me. I don't know how to say it, they distract me.

When Richter began playing with only the spotlight illuminating the score, someone tried to point out to him that this way he wouldn't be seen and his hands wouldn't be seen. He replied, "And what is there to 'see'? The hands of a man who works, nothing more!". Music is something one listens to and, to listen to it, one must see who is playing it, but what a person does while playing are things that concern him. Gould, when it was pointed out to him that while playing he gestured and conducted with one hand using the other, replied that these were matters "between his right hand and his left hand" and that he understood instead the observations about his habit of humming, because that could actually distract from listening. The fact that some attitudes of instrumentalists while playing are found useless and annoying is something that should (rightly) not concern them. If Berezovsky needs to move in a certain way to play, he knows it and it certainly isn't us (at least, certainly not me) who can go and judge him. Lang Lang is unwatchable, in my opinion, I find it exaggerated, and I believe that 70% of his movements are artificial. That said, I don't even like how he sounds and in the end, that is what interests me. Him playing the clown is an aggravating factor, but if he manages to play the way he plays (and he plays like a god, technically speaking, even if it doesn't move me), of course I'm not going to be the one to tell him that he should stay a bit more still!

I understood the meaning of your previous comment

In relation to this

Carlos wrote:

by "pianistic mannerisms" I meant only and exclusively musical mannerisms (the kind that can be noticed even with eyes closed, for clarity)

could you give some examples of exclusively musical mannerisms? For instance, by comparing 2 versions of some exemplary work?

If the problem of "mannerism" refers to what is heard and not to what is seen, then it becomes a specific question of musical interpretation.

The first thing that comes to mind is that habit, typically from the nineteenth century, of anticipating the bass relative to the melody, a characteristic that can (rarely) still be heard in some twentieth-century pianists, who are nonetheless very rigorous.

More generally, the big question is the motility of phrasing in relation to the rhythmic structure of the composition: here a wide debate could open up, because one might ask: what is the boundary between "mannerism," on one hand, and, at the opposite extreme, interpretative "frigidity"?

In fact, MaestroFredda, I went all out on those that are seen more than those that are heard, because the difference between interpretation and mannerism could be so subtle as to bring everything into the interpretive sphere.

In fact, Carlos himself recounted an episode that, although cute and interesting, has as its focus (even if in a negative way) seeing rather than hearing...

The Appassionata can arouse strange reactions... I would pay to have her technique, but don't you think she slaughtered this sonata a little? When she looks elsewhere, what is she looking at?... The Lord?

Fazıl Say "Appassionata" 3rd Movement Variations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS4F1Y6R134

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jack wrote:

The appassionata can arouse strange reactions... I would pay to have her technique, but don't you think she butchered this sonata a bit? When she looks elsewhere, what is she looking at?... The Lord?

let's say Beethoven ... sorry but I couldn't resist

...is he joking?

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Talentuoso wrote:

let's say Beethoven ... sorry but I couldn't resist

... now I understand why they call it "pathetic"

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maestrosfredda wrote:

The first thing that comes to mind is that habit, typically from the nineteenth century, of anticipating the bass relative to the melody, a characteristic that can moreover (rarely) still be heard in some twentieth-century pianists, who are nonetheless very rigorous.

I agree with Maestro Sfredda. A classic example is Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli. You can go listen to the interpretation of the funeral march from Chopin's Sonata in B-flat minor. And one certainly cannot say that Michelangeli was not rigorous, and yet...

Mamma mia, Morgan has completely left the piano to dedicate himself to X-Factor and other things that are better left unsaid, and the results can be felt!! Terrible...

Notice the expression of effort he makes to bring the left hand to the tempo of the right hand. Ahahah

But rightly so, one follows the path that enriches the pockets, in this case X-Factor.

Aside from Morgan's pathetic performance, this is a matter of being respectful toward the Composer. The type of execution seen in Fazil Say makes me smile and disgusts me to the point of nausea. I have performed this sonata in concert several times and I believe, from personal experience, that the difficulty of this third movement lies in making the passagework incisive and the sonic energy impactful, while respecting the Allegro ma non troppo. I repeat: ALLEGRO MA NON TROPPO. I would like to remind everyone that the term Allegro is not a synonym for fast, and if anything, during Beethoven's time, tempo references were very different. Think about it today: something moving fast could be understood as a speeding car or a plane taking off. In those days, one would have thought of a galloping carriage!!!!!

Now, deciding to put on a circus show irritates anyone who has even a little respect for style. Do we want to see who can run the fastest? Fine, but that has nothing to do with the interpretation of this finale. This gratuitous showmanship serves no purpose... unless one knows how to resolve things at the right time. A pianist who thinks they are being boring when they fail to amaze is not on the right track. Thus, as Sandor also says, it is not necessary to put the adrenal glands to the test and sweat twice as much just to have put our "intentions" on display. All emotions must come solely from the Music and nothing should be illustrated, much less with our spectacular gestures. This is my personal opinion

jack wrote:

...I would pay to have his technique...

To have technique, there is no need to pay; it is enough to study with great humility and sacrifice. Most pianists—and Morgan, drugs and X-Factor aside, is a classic example—suffer from a great technical disparity between the right and left hand. Unequal hands in terms of speed, strength, incisiveness, movements that succeed with one hand but not the other, and many other problems. I spoke of humility because many of these pianists do not recognize this limit of theirs, and are forced to accept it only when they find themselves playing four-hands with someone who does not have their problem and they cannot keep up, or any other situation where they face a comparison... Furthermore, piano repertoires unfortunately do not improve this disparity; in fact, I would say that almost 90% of the piano repertoire is made for the right hand. I am referring to all that repertoire where virtuosity and complex passages are dedicated solely to the right hand. Well, I recognize in Chopin's studies the solution to these problems. They are designed also for this purpose: to make the left hand work, to make it reach the level of preparation, strength, elasticity, and speed of the right hand, to equalize the two hands.

TheSimon wrote:

Here, I recognize in Chopin's studies the solution to these problems. They are designed also for this purpose: to make the left hand work, to make it reach the degree of preparation, strength, elasticity, and speed of the right hand, to equalize the two hands.

...we did it. Bingo

Rotore wrote:

...we did it. Bingo

Why?