Study

Musical talent and study

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nancy

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Opening post by nancy

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..."that child is gifted... he will surely become a concert pianist"

.."he has natural talent"...

Without questioning the existence of innate qualities that facilitate the achievement of certain goals, I have always wondered how much, instead, certain results can be achieved primarily thanks to a strong love for music and clearly due to a correct learning career!

...an average subject with an excellent teacher, what ambitions do you think they will be able to satisfy?

I know it may seem trivial and obvious, but when talking about making music at certain levels, it can be a useful and not simple reflection, in my opinion!

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Reply 4 by Egidio

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nancy wrote:

I have always wondered how much, instead, certain results can be achieved thanks primarily to a strong love for music and clearly to a correct learning career!

... an example could have been Petrucciani

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Reply 5 by nancy

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THANK YOU!....I will read them with great interest...I hadn't even checked if anything had already been said about it because it seemed to me they might only be my own doubts!

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Reply 6 by giovannip

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Sometimes talent alone is not enough, I think it's a mix of many things put together. Certainly an excellent teacher; it is fundamental that they know how to make the child love the music they will play, as well as the instrument; I would add great spirit of sacrifice on the part of the child in the years to come, which is not entirely guaranteed.

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Reply 8 by Frank

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nancy wrote:

I found many interesting reflections in the posts you gave me. Thank youuuuuuuu

...and now, what idea have you formed about the matter?

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Reply 9 by nancy

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That fate does not exist... everything can be written...

Qualities may also exist, but then a series of right contingencies direct and develop what nature has given, which in my opinion does not necessarily mean hereditary, but more generically intrinsic to the genotype. Infinite genotypes... infinite experiential backgrounds... infinite possibilities of musical results.

What has reassured me, and what I seem to understand anyway, is that fortunately most people do not limit themselves to the preconception that only the child "born" for music should or can make music... as I have painfully heard said in other contexts!

I have always maintained that the best talent in music is passion, which allows for tenacity and patience in study... in seeking one's own sound and one's own expression.

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Reply 10 by marcy63

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Hi Nancy, an interesting discussion that involves me personally.

My first love was pop music and, having a very good ear for relative pitch, I played the guitar quite well.

At the time, I became fascinated by the electronic organ (non-liturgical) specifically to pursue that path.

But my parents weren't very keen on the idea and made me abandon accounting on the condition that I attend the conservatory.

And so it happened.

I proved to be a child prodigy (I was already 14 years old) and from scratch, in 2 years, I passed the fifth-year exam.

At the Milan conservatory, I was held in high regard, especially by the director at the time, Marcello Abbado, who had also made me go to my head a little bit.

I began playing my first concerts and this is where the trouble started......... the TERROR was such that I would stiffen up, becoming like a violin string!!!!! Mostly to the detriment of the sound.

Continuing towards the eighth-year exam, disaster struck!! I dropped out of the conservatory and started traveling around playing pop music and working as a demonstrator for a famous Milanese shop.

After a few years of drifting here and there, also driven by an important romantic relationship, I put in the work and in one year, as a private student, I passed the infamous and hated eighth-year exam with a grade of 10.

I graduated in '90 by the grace of the Holy Spirit......

In practice, I have told you all this because there are truly many factors that make a "concert artist."

The problem is making them all blend together: talent, passion, study, a good dose of narcissism, and not being terrified of the audience.

After that, I drifted into completely different things for years until last year when, as you will have read in my introduction, I had that serious health accident.

Today, at 53 years old, I find myself with a great reborn passion; I have started studying "for real" and I want to succeed in returning to the stage by facing my fear.

I don't know how far I will go, but I have a great desire to try!

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Reply 11 by nancy

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...your story is very fascinating and significant for many reasons.

i identify what is called talent to a large extent with passion... or rather, generally those who have a passion for music feel a strong attraction towards it, a strong calling that probably also has genetic roots (?!?!).... it can be lulled by force majeure or unawareness/distraction. but it does not die and often re-emerges with that touch of maturity needed to make all those factors coalesce, which had not found the right coincidence and which perhaps in other phases of life were not lucky. i know this path.... . i have great respect for the strength you express.

unfortunately many teachers have the audacity to claim credit for giving the student certain skills that are instead perhaps simply the fruit of the student's passion, and attribute blame to them when there are difficulties that they, as teachers, are unable to help overcome...

the credit always goes to the teacher when the student interprets well, and the blame goes to the student, attributing limits and a lack of talent to them when there are difficulties.

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Reply 12 by luigigi

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Marcy63 from casaletto Lodigiano ???

practically we are neighbors.... (I think we played with a common saxophonist... tal Vito. Could it be?)

Well... anyway, I believe it also depends on the type of music.

What works in jazz, does not work in classical.

I have met monstrous talents who are international-level musicians that study very, very little, but they play jazz, they see and hear the notes and they play them and interpret them with their soul. Faced with the relative rigidity of classical music, they would freeze up, smudge the notes, play ahead or behind...

I have had friends graduated from the conservatory in more than one instrument who read the score backwards, the flute from end to beginning. One of them is no longer a musician; the other is only called for substitutions. Both great scholars; monsters at sight-reading but with little soul. The mix is difficult. In classical music, it's impossible not to kill yourself studying; in jazz and classy pop, you can study even less if you have the talent. I am an average subject; to achieve merely discrete results, I must continue to study for hours and hours. I have friends who barely know the pentatonic scale but play a killer blues. They use superlocrian scales without knowing what they are. Of course, a good teacher is fundamental. I understood chord construction without having to memorize them all thanks to a teacher from whom I took three lessons (he was too far away). I am a professional teacher (not of music) and I find it important to understand deeply which path to follow student by student. Finding the right example for THAT student.

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Reply 13 by maquieto

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Yes, a beautiful example Marcy.. for me it went differently with painting. I loved art very much but to say I was hopeless.... was putting it mildly.... even the teachers said to my mother, who would have advised me to go to that institute. In reality, I believed in it and I was a creative person inside. Ever since I was 8 years old, I copied Monet in tempera on plywood boards alongside her, who was anyway a great enthusiast of painting,.. Perhaps the teachers did not realize this passion of mine.. but over the years I pursued my path anyway and I managed to bring out my stifled talent.

In my opinion, however, and I emphasize this, there is a difference between natural talent and study that makes you reach desired results with difficulty.

The difference is simple (and I have experienced it firsthand). Natural talent must understand and refine what it knows, whereas someone who studies but lacks a natural inclination must learn what they do not know. And it is very different.

Since childhood, I gravitated towards music, painting, and craftsmanship (woodworking). Very little gifted in painting, average in music, but excellent natural talent in woodworking which did not interest me like the others, perhaps precisely because I wouldn't have to challenge or conquer anything. In practice, everything I did in that craft field came naturally (the tricks, the solutions, the most complex things... I felt like I was my own teacher.... even if I had to see things realized to understand them.. which is logical .. but with extreme ease.. as an adult what do I discover? Doing a bit of research, I discover I have a generation of carpenters behind me... ha ha can you imagine? At this point I abandoned my beliefs of the time and understood that ..... natural talent plays a part, and how.

However, time has shown me that with study and application, all the goals we set for ourselves can be achieved, even if with great effort. The fact is that when you are pervaded by your passion, you listen to everything, and that same passion becomes fuel for learning ... nothing satisfies you and you learn much faster than those who do not have that passion.. just because during the day when others are going around or having fun with friends ... you... the outcast ... and I say this to make a point... are happy cultivating what your heart commands.

The other problem you speak of is... the gifted or predisposed child and the ordinary child... and this is a cultural problem of a country.

Besides, just as children learn the alphabet, for what reason should they not give the same importance to notes?

Surely with notes they won't be able to tell the baker to prepare them a sandwich or stop a friend because a car is coming (which isn't true because music has also taken over street language.. the driver would handle it in this case with a simple honk...) but tomorrow they will be able, without pronouncing a single word, to narrate

, with the magic of sounds, something very important to a thousand people at once.

In Switzerland, Germany, Russia etc., for example, they play a lot in families and so in other countries, not coincidentally more culturally active than us. In Italy, playing the piano or holding a brush in your hand means at least... not wanting to work..

Fine for football, fine if you study music to go on TV.. or conservatory but only for the fact that you might go to La Scala .. or be a well-paid master.

It is a matter of VALUES... here at home we prepare the child to push through among others for things that are useful and not those that are not (namely art) and that is why we find ourselves in a country that is sinking, a country where theaters close and where finding a quality concert in the smaller provinces is nonetheless very rare.

I saw a Lazar Berman concert here in town... and the hall was half-empty... Schubert's Sonata in B minor.. and Schubertian repertoire to follow.. truly magnificent .. he played like God. And to think they should have welcomed him with carriages and red carpet in a small province like ours... but.... nothing... the next day almost no one will have kept anything of that magical encounter. The ladies had the usual chat on the stairs, showing off their platypus fur ... just to be noticed. Just to "be" that it was the era of culture, that he was a great figure but alas.. without bringing home anything new. The husbands from afar mentioned leaving, bored from accompanying them, giving up the long-awaited match and in this way the second real curtain of the evening fell, that of culture.

For the teachers, I would say in complete agreement. The teacher should understand who they have in front of them by trying to create a relationship of esteem with the student; avoiding turning them into an imitating disciple.

They should"

choosing different means to provide to different people to achieve a common goal, that of learning the musician's craft and that of deeply understanding oneself and the reasons for that choice.

I was fortunate enough to meet a great master, whom I will always thank.

This master, perhaps without even realizing it, changed my life.

A very interesting but also very complex topic.

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Reply 14 by nancy

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Talent understood as that innate gift that makes certain skills easier. ...it could be! But how can you say that it isn't the context instead that facilitates... or makes difficult..

When I was in the conservatory, I used to study about 12 h a day, often making pieces harder by insisting too much in an unproductive way...

As soon as I changed teachers, my study hours were reduced. In fact, she was the one who told me not to overdo it on passages that weren't working, but that we would solve them together, and effectively she taught me to study in a different way... once I understood the mechanism, studying became much more fruitful and easy... but my natural abilities are still the same.

The first teacher made me feel like a nobody, but in hindsight, it was his teachings that were flattening and stifling my abilities. ....it's easy to feel untalented when a teacher is telling you so and you are a child... I am referring specifically to Fabio! Who is to say that in painting you simply weren't undervalued...

A times it is difficult to immediately recognize one's own passions and therefore one's own talents! Perhaps in a different context, valued and encouraged, you would have felt "gifted" in painting and your choices would have been different!?!

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Reply 15 by Thesimon

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I can use my own story as an example from the ground up, something I reasoned about not too long ago with my first piano teacher, who maintained and still maintains today that I was a child prodigy.

I began playing the piano at the age of 9 (also a bit late); at 13 or 14, I performed Liszt's second Hungarian Rhapsody at a recital; at 16, in my first concert in a real theater, I played an entirely Chopin repertoire: mazurkas, waltzes, and the fourth Ballade, and I also had other important repertoire under my hands such as Chopin's Berceuse, some Nocturnes, etc., and I must say that I never killed myself studying; except for the music history exams, eighth and tenth year, which I had to take in 6 months since from the following year conservatories would no longer accept private students.

If I sincerely have doubts about the "child prodigy" story because I do not believe I was a child prodigy—since although facilitated in technique I played those pieces with the immaturity typical of a child—I must, however, acknowledge that I always had technical and anatomical advantages enormously superior to many other pianists who had already been playing for a long time before me: very fast and very large hands combined with my ambidexterity, which allowed me to play with almost the same ease with my left hand what I did with my right. To draw a parallel, there are many "right-handed" graduates who struggle even simply to bring an Alberti bass up to speed with their left hand. This serves to demonstrate that genetics alone also plays a fundamental role.

I believe that beyond these technical facilitations, the "serious pianist" emerges from a myriad of factors that must somehow combine... Genetics, mindset, sense of sacrifice, talent, social experiences, family economic situation, etc.

I also include the economic situation because playing the piano at a certain level is something for the "well-to-do," especially if you do not attend a conservatory and are forced to study as a private student. To play the piano, first of all, you need a piano; private lessons cost a fortune, and when one thinks that once the diploma is obtained the spending is finished, that is exactly the moment when one spends the most on masterclasses and advanced courses.

Families who do not live an affluent existence prefer to invest the few pennies they have in their child into university to give them a more marketable education rather than having them play an instrument which, given the current situation especially here in Italy, will be difficult to provide them with a livelihood.

Social experiences, because the age at which one begins to play an instrument is a particularly difficult age. It happens precisely during the moments of growth when passing from the social state of child to adolescent, when one begins to think about relationships with the opposite sex, going out with friends. All this can be a distraction, and it is therefore important that the child/young person feels responsible and makes choices that perhaps require more maturity than their age.

At this point, Talent comes in... If you start to develop interests in other activities, it means you will dedicate less time to the instrument. Someone with talent, if well-guided, learns in just a few hours what others learn in days or months. This will trigger the wrath of many people, but it is the truth; deal with it. The proof is that there are people who spend entire years reading a Beethoven sonata and others (the talented ones) who master it in a few days.

Sense of sacrifice... At certain levels, it is necessary to sacrifice oneself for study. While other kids can go out and have fun after finishing their school homework, those studying an instrument must sacrifice leisure time to dedicate themselves to the instrument. When there is dedication and love for the instrument, this does not weigh so much, but it is always time spent being engaged with something arduous instead of resting and unplugging.

Mindset, because you cannot play with negativity and problems. The mind must be free and must apply itself solely to study; only in this way will the results be evident. Playing when you are thinking about the girlfriend who left you or an argument with a friend is wasted time. You might as well close the piano and go for a walk to clear your head. In this case, one needs the intelligence to know how to channel those feelings into study.

I would also include consistency, and this is not something everyone can afford. In my case, to be consistent with my studies, I have been forced to sleep 5/6 hours a night for 3 years now (I am one of those...

(if they don't sleep 8 hours straight, they feel unwell all day long). For those who work, it is not easy to be consistent in studying the instrument, so I would also add luck. Those who are lucky enough to have jobs that leave a lot of free time can certainly be more consistent.

As you can see, the Pianist with a capital P, not the strummer, is the one who, being endowed, sacrifices himself and studies by taking time away from rest. I sincerely do not believe that one can become serious pianists if even one of these conditions is missing at the base, talent included then.

It's a bit like mathematics; there are those who understand it and those who don't. I have friends to whom I could teach mathematics for years, they are not genetically predisposed to this subject and would never manage to even reach the study of a function. Each of us has characteristics that make us better than others in a particular context, and to reach a high level, it necessarily requires the combination of many characteristics, some of which do not depend on us but on external factors.

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Reply 16 by nancy

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TheSimon wrote:

I believe that beyond these technical facilitations, the "serious pianist" emerges from a myriad of factors that must somehow combine... Genetics, mindset, sense of sacrifice, talent, social experiences, family economic situation, etc.

you have listed what I call contingencies in life or resources.... fundamental are the economic possibilities, the cultural context in which one grows up, etc..

TheSimon wrote:

Talent comes into play at this point... If you start to nurture interests in other activities, it means you will dedicate less time to the instrument. Those who have talent, if well guided, learn what others learn in days or months, in just a few hours. This will trigger the wrath of many people but it is the truth, come to terms with it. The proof is that there are people who spend entire years reading a Beethoven sonata and others (the talented ones) who master it in a few days.

i have met pianists who had enormous facility for certain composers but were hopeless with others... I remember one in particular (whom I knew very well) read Beethoven marvelously and rendered it almost without having to study it.... but Chopin just wasn't for him... he tried, but he couldn't empathize with it at all. But also others........ sometimes it happens to have extreme facility for only one composer in a certain phase of life....

a 4-year-old child who is evaluated "in their talent" is not devoid of experiences. The life context in which they grew up has already carved deep grooves for a full 4 years. When we say they are gifted, what are we seeing? Their experiences of approaching music or their nature?

I believe the core of the matter is precisely defining what we then call talent.

allow me to play devil's advocate:

for a few years I taught in a school for little kids, but those who certainly have more teaching experience can tell me more.

they all had musicality. only for some (rare ones) did music simply not appeal to them and they were unable to use this musicality.

in several, they felt this musicality strongly as a passion and decided to go deeper. then the resources that life reserved for them made the difference.

i distinguish between what is basic musicality, what is passion or talent, and what is a block towards one's own musicality. Truly rare. just think that often even autistic children have musicality. but in my opinion, it is more likely an experiential block.

for those who have a passion for music, this natural gift is not enough and goes beyond

- those who have passion (true passion) equip themselves to reach certain goals.... they have consistency.... they invest money.... they have a spirit of sacrifice and self-abnegation for music, living their social experiences accordingly.... they put in effort (and if well guided), study and refine their skills infinitely...

why then not think that talent is nothing more than passion (the strong kind)?"}

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Reply 17 by maquieto

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Guys... Simone and Nancy... you are making my life complicated!! Ha ha.. I would say it's a very interesting discussion..

But perhaps rivers of words would not be enough.

You are absolutely right, Simone; money, family, sacrifice—it is the same for me too.

Surely there is something inside us that pushes us to be different and perhaps art, dreams, and research lead us to want to be better.

To me, playing is like painting: it is also about waking someone up (a listener or a viewer of a visual work) from their torpor, making them understand what I understood and felt with that work, moving them, taking them by the hand to give them something of myself and of the world.

I would say that in the end, the artist loves everything and everyone. There have been thousands of artists who produced gigantic works without ever being considered,,, and yet... they continued.. but why? (Do you know how they once found a Van Gogh being used to separate one chicken coop from another? I mean, used as a partition board....)

Because truth and its search are surely inherent in the human soul.

I am also writing notes for the publication of a book (points of intersection between image and music, or the figurative imaginary in music) that I would like to finish and publish.

What you say about authors, Nancy, is very true. Some read one author but have no affinity with others.. and on this, we often forget that a piece is not an event descended from heaven (even if sometimes it might seem so because of the beauty contained within) but is the "simple" work of a man.. or a woman..

The composer generally composes unconsciously based on who they are and their manual and cerebral abilities. A composer who is not a piano virtuoso will not compose virtuoso pieces.. perhaps they may have peaks of this type throughout their entire body of work, but they will always return to writing about what "is" and not what "is not," since the search for art and truth is a search for oneself and for the nature of things. In fact, even pianists identify with a composer precisely for reasons of thought and of the hand—why not! By playing it preferentially throughout their lives.

What you say is very true; I was certainly unappreciated at the time with drawing and painting, as evidenced by the fact that after the second year, with the arrival of a new teacher who esteemed me greatly (without ever having known me), I swear to you that my attitude changed, and in one year I made use of all those things I had seen and tried to learn, but in a mechanical way without any result... what you were talking about with the 12 hours of study... as Simone says, and I agree a thousand percent, the mind must be free!!! And one should perhaps be selfish for just those two or three hours a day, or even just one, which according to Tausig would be sufficient to build up good technique. It is so!!

Mechanical study is useless, since our brain is not mechanical.

Let us remember that Einstein failed mathematics, and often those who do not do well in school are not donkeys but many times more intelligent than others,,, so much so that they realize that those things taught in that way simply do not suit them.. they understand that everything should be done or taught in a different way and therefore they shut down in the face of the arrogance of teachers and students who instead follow that system.

The most unruly friends I had have become much more serious people as adults... but look at that... ha ha

Seriously, an infinite discussion... anyway, I am in agreement with you.

Dlet's just say that having wasted time... I am 43 years old and by 53 I will have to become more of a pianist than I am.

I accept the challenge!!!

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