Piano Tuning

Giovannip wrote:

I would like to open a discussion on piano tuning; the reason is that I would like to be able to tune it myself, and not just for economic reasons. Where is it written that pianists should not know how to tune their own instrument, unlike most musicians? Here in our country (Italy), when talking about piano tuning, it's as if one were talking about a state secret; Italian tuning technicians won't even give you information even if you pay them, and I would even pay for this blessed information. Try searching the internet for sites, YouTube videos, books on the subject; to be honest, only two exist (I bought both). The first was written by a certain Dr. Enrico Bongioanni, "Norme per l'accordatura dei pianoforti" [Rules for tuning pianos], which is unfeasible for anyone who even wants to try tuning; the second is by Franco and Roberto Bottini, "Accordare il pianoforte" [Tuning the piano], which isn't bad but is too little—think about it, only 30 little pages. If we search the internet for the same topic (tuning piano) in English, the sky is the limit; there is everything.

I hope I have managed somehow to open a discussion on the subject; I leave the floor to someone else.

Moved to the correct section...

Hi Giovanni, you have my full approval. In fact, pianists are the only class of musicians who, a priori, do not know their own instrument; and more than not knowing tuning (which is very complex and not everyone has the suitable physical requirements to perform it), they do not know the mechanics of the keyboard, and they have no knowledge whatsoever of all those 'whys' that would lead a pianist to perform with full awareness of their abilities in relation to the actual capabilities of the instrument. If you have watched our video tutorials, we have tried to mention this several times precisely because we believe it is a central issue. Coming to the problem of tuning: I am not a technician; pianoexpert is, and I don't think he will be long in answering your question. It is certainly not possible to learn how to tune by reading a book or watching videos made on the internet; these things can give you theoretical foundations, but practice must necessarily be learned with a professional qualified meaning one who has a certificate attesting to their actual preparation. You need someone to guide you because tuning a piano doesn't just mean turning a key on the pins until the note is in tune, but it means having a certain physical approach with the tools used to perform the tuning. Sitting at the piano without knowing how to set up and use the tuning hammer can cause serious damage to the soundboard, which is the wooden component located under the frame where the pins are fixed, and I believe there is no need to explain to you what causing damage to the soundboard entails. In our small way, we have tried to do our best to give all site users an idea of what it means to have a tuned piano and how to check if the tuner has done a good job. Beyond the costs involved for materials like hammers, felts, and all those tools necessary for tuning, there is therefore a much deeper problem: knowing how to interact with the tools which, for obvious reasons, cannot be learned from a book. In essence, it's not like tuning a guitar where there are 6 (in the worst case 12) strings where you just turn a peg to tune the instrument without problems; in the case of a piano, there are hundreds of strings, not to mention that on a guitar tuners can be used since we only have to tune 6 notes and each note consists of a single string. In the piano, in addition to having to create the correct harmonic ratios between various notes, we also find ourselves tuning unisons, meaning three strings for each note, without letting them beat. In short, it is certainly not an easy task; I believe you will agree. It would be nice, in any case, to create courses, and I don't know if pianoexpert has ever thought about doing so. He is a very helpful person but has very little time available, and if he cannot do courses, it certainly wouldn't be because of "not wanting to pass on the art of tuning," since our tutorials are proof of that...

Your discussion is interesting anyway, and I hope other people will also be interested in giving you answers and expressing their points of view. I will continue to follow it. Best regards...

Dear Giovanni,

It seems that Thesimon always beats me to the answer.!!!!!

So. In my opinion, it's true. There is a certain hidden "jealousy" in Italy for all trades. "What if you teach me everything...." But it's not always like that. If I teach something, you don't take anything away from me. Anyway, one must accept that some skills are acquired after years of knowledge, errors, experiments, etc. Tuning a piano is truly difficult and one must be aware of many principles. Everyone has the right to learn the technique, but one must know that it is one of those practices that must mature over time. If one has the desire and the time to dedicate a few years to this profession, some results can be achieved. It is good to start understanding, as I suggest in the videos, if a piano is tuned or out of tune and/or, more importantly, if and why it is poorly tuned. It is possible to organize courses and seminars, but not every pianist necessarily needs to be capable of tuning.

One should start by truly understanding some principles of acoustics and then begin on an old piano by "splitting" the central octave.......if they manage to do that, it is already a great result. One can help oneself with a small electronic tuner, BUT one must immediately learn why that device might not satisfy us. With appropriate corrections, we will come to understand what inharmonicity is. In short: different skills should be attributed to each of us, but one must try not to leave "absolute power" to expertise. Each of us must know what the tuner or the technician does to our piano and therefore we have the duty and the right to "understand" the nature of the interventions performed on the instrument.

I am available for anything I am able to illustrate and clarify....but Simone....give me some time!!!!!

Hello everyone

Paolo

Dear Paolo and Simone, thank you for your intervention on the subject of tuning; look, I have always spoken about tuning and not repairs, hammer voicing, and so on. I only wanted to add that I am aware of the problems related to any potential damage I might cause to my piano; I know what disharmony is and that every piano has its own "voice" and that a simple electronic tuner is not enough to tune one's own piano. In any case, I possess an excellent tuning hammer and I am capable of touching up any out-of-tune strings (such as the unison strings); all this I learned by observing and listening to my trusted tuner when he comes to tune my piano, some brief reading, and YouTube videos where I had the pleasure of watching your tutorials, which are truly very well done.

Anyway, you are right, one must absolutely not intervene on one's own piano if one does not know exactly what to do; there is a serious risk of damaging the instrument.

But I remain of the opinion that learning to tune the piano through video tutorials and reading material is a feasible thing, naturally if it is not possible to attend a real tuning course at a school.

thanks Giovanni

Very good, Giovanni!!!!!

Then I can consider you an "initiate".

Many have learned to tune by discovering secrets and observing their own tuner, perhaps a good tuner.

It was the same for me.

I remember that when Orsini, a great master, came to my house, it was a celebration. No one before him had managed to satisfy me. In his essential, rough, and good-natured way, he did not skimp on explanations and advice, and I, a boy not yet twenty, was fascinated. When he left, the piano was truly in tune. It vibrated throughout its entire range. Everything was beautiful and singable. Arthur Rubinstein thought so too; when he was in Rome, he only wanted him.

Now as far as you are concerned, you possess a good key (I assume with a star-shaped socket!), so.... off to experience. You can even tune a piano frequently; it does no harm to the instrument (but be careful not to make "stressful" movements with the key, risking ovalizing the holes). But you must observe certain precautions.

When turning the key, one must notice when the pin turns and when it "twists." Sometimes we think a movement has occurred... instead, only a single twist has happened, or it partially turned and partially twisted. To understand this, just take your right index finger and grip it with your left. Let's try to turn it. We will see and feel that the finger first twists and then, under the pressure of the torsion, begins to turn. Therefore, go up a little more than what is correct and return slightly back with a GENTLE, springy movement of the wrist. The tighter the pin (the better), the more, naturally, it struggles to move and therefore initially twists. Try to learn to feel the distinction between the two movements. Well, then: descending fifths and ascending fourths. Verify the major thirds which, from F-A below middle C, should have beats of progressive speed. F-A about 5 per second, A-C# 7, C#-F 9, F-A 13. Close the verification between the major third F3-A3 and the tenth F3-A4. Same beats. Being able to clearly distinguish from that F3 to A4 is a good start. Keep me informed of your progress. Then we will talk about other checks. Good work, Paolo

Beautiful explanation pianoexpert!!! I also agree that if one cannot follow a tuning course... it is BETTER to follow your tutorials, they are much better than various texts see e.g. the text by Walter Pfeiffer on the hammer, dampers etc etc.. all theory.. many drawings ..but I finally understood something only through the tutorials of the GREAT PAOLO! greetings

saverio

well I see that the matter is starting to interest someone else, thanks Saverio for your support.

Giovanni

Giovannip wrote:

well I see that the matter is starting to interest someone else, thanks Saverio for your support.

Giovanni

congratulations on the work you are doing

But thank you all.

There is a small setback regarding my tutorials, because I have to perform a concert in Rome on May 7th, then I will get back to work. It is my intention to talk about the upright piano and start the first videos on piano technique setup.

I will gladly collect requests through the development of issues raised on the Forum. So, welcome the debate.

See you soon and thank you all for the compliments

Paolo

Paolo, if you don't mind, I would like to pick up from your last response regarding tuning. You see, in theory, I know how to proceed to create the compartment and then "clone," so to speak, moving towards the highs and then the lows, but all of this is only in theory!! But as you teach me, there is a long way from practice to theory. You know, I think that being able to see and especially hear a falling fifth or a rising fourth helps immensely anyone who wants to try tuning.

So now I am asking you if, in due time, you would prepare a tutorial for us to show how to create a compartment and how to proceed; we would be very grateful.

Am I asking too much? (yes!!! you will tell me so).

Giovanni

All right.

The section is quite difficult, but we all started somewhere.

Let's start by saying that experience makes you understand how much the fourths and fifths must be flat or sharp. It is much easier to listen to the major thirds for verification. If we hear the progression of the beat speed, we will be on the right track. The A - E closing will give us the final verification. Some schools proceed immediately by major thirds, a faster system that I consider more professional. I verify fifths and fourths a lot... and sixths. Then it is fine to immediately verify the F-Bb-D chord. We have the major third and the fourth; we must distinguish the sweet beats of both intervals. FA3 and LA4 must also be closed immediately with the same beats as FA3-LA3. If we have done well, we will proceed towards the highs, always checking the fifths and fourths. Also the tenths. Perhaps, almost always, towards the highs, the fifths quickly become correct and the octaves a little bit wider. When we start the mids and lows, we will verify octave plus fifth and two octaves plus fifth. They must result as correct. Only in this way will the piano assume excellent brilliance. The piano must always be tested even in its extreme parts... if they work... the tuner was good!!!! Anyway, it is not easy and you don't always succeed immediately. Our ear tends to bring super-high sounds lower, for example. Thus, the disharmony of each piano also makes the "partials" more or less increasing compared to the true harmonics. In short, a skilled tailor will learn to dress people with different physiques and make them elegant.

I hope these clarifications have been useful to you

Good luck with your work

Paolo

Good morning!!!!!

I only discovered this fantastic site today! I feel out of place; you are all "PROFESSIONALS" and I am just someone who has been torturing his piano all his life!

I am 63 years old, retired for two months, and I bought a second-hand piano, a very, very cheap little thing, but perhaps better than the one I had previously which was a LUBITZ (Berlin - year 1870 - two pedals), a bit old with windowed soundboards, it could no longer hold its tuning, an old bayonet mechanism.

Now I have purchased a STEINMANN upright with a very modern line, cast iron frame and solid soundboards; it is certainly less than 30 years old, but it is a FAKE GERMAN... in short, I really think that the only German thing about it is the name (for the unwary like me), I cannot find out where it was manufactured (if you give me any information regarding this, I would be very grateful!)

But let's get to the forum topic - tuning the piano:

Well, in the past, it is an operation I have always done by myself; after watching a couple of tuners, I stole their technique, I bought the appropriate star wrench, and I made my own wedges and small blocks to hold the strings so that I could tune them one at a time. My tunings, however, have always been done by ear.....????....(I have a good ear!) now instead I would like to be able to use some programs to download on the PC for FREE from the internet to tune the piano under the control of an electronic TUTOR so that I can perform a more precise and meticulous tuning. I found two, both FREE but written entirely in English... to me it's Greek!

the programs are: 1°) - SOFTONIC DOWNLOADER and 2°) - FLVPLAYERSETUP

Can you tell me anything about these two programs? Or do you have any FREE programs to recommend to me?

As I said initially, I only torture my piano because I play only by ear, I don't know music, but now that I am retired and have more time I would like to learn ..... who knows!... maybe it is too late?

I hope, and I wish that even though I am a "Layman"... you will grant me the privilege of a response in any case!, Regards Carlo

dear generic user, thank you for the compliments. Simone, an expert in these programs, will not hesitate to answer you. Your ear, however, if it works well, is a severe judge and knows very well how to evaluate the disharmonies of your piano. Trust "him" too

It is also important to learn how to handle the tuning hammer in the right way. The tuning must last. Knowing how to turn the wrench and go back by leaning on the right point!

In short, as said in the videos, the tuning procedure is very complex and one should tune many pianos: making mistakes and understanding where one goes wrong and why. I have understood that you are a good observer and this is good!

The program helps if it is sophisticated and if it takes into account the disharmony of the instrument, or rather if it is capable of detecting it before the tuning. Good. Good work

Hello genericuser,

Softonic Downloader -> It is software used to download other software, as the term "downloader" = "scaricatore" suggests.

Flvplayersetup -> It is probably the software that should have used the Softonic downloader to be downloaded. I don't know it, but from the name FLV Player, I understand it to be a program for playing Flash Video files. In essence, neither of these two programs is even remotely intended for tuning.

As far as I know, there are no good free software tools available for piano tuning. At most, wandering through sites, you might find chromatic tuning software, but they have nothing to do with a piano tuner. Chromatic tuners, as I have already said several times in some posts, tune a note by comparison with the relative theoretical frequency. E.g., A = 440 - A# = 440 * [12]sqrt(2) etc. etc. In short, as pianoexpert has already told you well, these tools (whether hardware or software) do not take inharmonicity into account; therefore, in reality, some notes, in order to satisfy certain harmonic ratios, might need to be tuned a little higher or lower than their theoretical frequency.

There are programs, however, that do take this variable into account and correct the theoretical frequencies in relation to this new data. In this way, tuning always occurs by comparing frequencies, but this time they are normalized with respect to the new variable represented by inharmonicity. These programs are very expensive. I know Veritune by Verituner and TuneLab. By searching Google for these two programs, you should realize.

If you have anything else to ask, I or someone else will surely answer you.

pianoexpert wrote:

There is a small setback regarding my tutorials, because I have to perform a concert in Rome on May 7th, then I will get back to work.

Can I have more information about this concert (time, location etc.)?

Thank you

TheSimon wrote:

Hi genericuser,

Softonic Downloader -> It is software used to download other software, as the term "downloader" = "scaricatore" suggests.

Flvplayersetup -> It is probably the software that should have used the Softonic downloader to be downloaded. I don't know it, but from the name FLV Player, I understand it to be a program for reading Flash Video files. In essence, neither of these two programs is even remotely intended for tuning.

As far as I know, there are no good free software programs available around for piano tuning. At most, wandering through sites, you might find chromatic tuning software, but they have nothing to do with a piano tuner. Chromatic tuners, as I have already said several times in some posts, tune a note by comparison with the relative theoretical frequency. E.g., A = 440 - A# = 440 * [12]sqrt(2) etc. etc. In short, as pianoexpert has already told you well, these tools (whether hardware or software) do not take inharmonicity into account; therefore, in reality, some notes, in order to satisfy certain harmonic ratios, might be tuned a little higher or lower compared to their theoretical frequency.

There are programs that instead take this variable into account and correct the theoretical frequencies in relation to this new data. In this way, tuning always occurs by comparing frequencies, but this time they are normalized with respect to the new variable represented by inharmonicity. These programs are very expensive. I know Veritune by Verituner and TuneLab. By doing a Google search on these two programs, you should realize.

If you have anything else to ask, I or someone else will surely answer you.

Good morning Simone!

Thank you for the reply, I would still like to know if you can tell me something about STEINMANN pianos...... what kind of pianos are they?... where were they manufactured?..... can you tell me if they are GOOD/BAD/MEDIOCRE? what are their CONCEIVED defects, as far as timbre is concerned it's not exactly at the peak of excellence, but for learning I think it can be fine, the sound is acceptably soft and harmonic; in short, to be an inexpensive upright for an apartment, I find it acceptable, but I would like to know a little more about its origin and manufacturing (is it really the child of N.N.???.... I would at least like to know what language it speaks!!!!) I can't find any news on the internet, perhaps you who are experts can help me?

pianoexpert wrote:

dear generic user, thank you for the compliments. Simone, an expert in these programs, will not hesitate to answer you. Your ear, however, if it works well, is a severe judge and knows very well how to evaluate the disharmony of your piano. Trust "him" as well

It is also important to learn how to handle the tuning pins in the right way. The tuning must last. Knowing how to turn the key and go back by leaning on the right point!

In short, as said in the videos, the tuning process is very complex and one should tune many pianos: making mistakes and understanding where one goes wrong and why. I have understood that you are a good observer and this is good!

The program helps if it is sophisticated and if it takes into account the disharmony of the instrument, or rather if it is capable of detecting it before tuning. Good. Good work

My name is Carlo, from Naples, thank you for the timely and exhaustive response, as regarding the use of the key, yes, certainly, one must know how to use it .... being careful to rotate it in the right way, perfectly perpendicular to the tuning pin without the latter being able to twist in its seat, otherwise there is a risk of deforming or ovalizing the seat (tuning pin) and that's trouble! furthermore, so that the tuning pin can do its tuning job well (in a micrometric way), it is my habit to first loosen it a little and then start pulling it even a little more than necessary to then bring it to the desired pitch, so as to unblock it in its seat before proceeding with the tuning which, otherwise, could suffer from the torsion effect of the materials. Am I doing well? It is obvious that although I have already performed this operation more than once, I AM CERTAINLY NOT A PROFESSIONAL, and my experience is limited only and exclusively to the interventions made on my old piano..... therefore any advice in this regard is accepted VERY VERY WELL..... there is always something to learn! I thank you in advance for the response you may wish to provide. Carlo

about the brand of my new second-hand piano STEINMANN.... can you tell me something?.... the origins?.... built by whom and where?... with which materials? strings and action where were they made? any information regarding this will be appreciated!

sergio. . . Pianoexpert's concert refers to last year!!!

look at the date of the reply. . . April 2011 . .

Ah yes, it's true, I am free on May 7th and I couldn't see anything else!