Sonata Form Workshop 2012

raffaeleb wrote:

Frank, since you know Cyrillic, reveal the composer's name to us so we can look it up on YouTube to hear the full version

...the version is already full. It is practically a lyrical piece

AleGozzo's version for piano

Much has already been written, so I will start with a question: why did you feel the need to double the melody in octaves during the response? Just curiosity.

The second theme is nice; like me, you exploited the repeated eighth notes in syncopation, but you treated it thematically, whereas I used it as "filler" over the pedals.

Perhaps in the development, one could have tried starting in a different key, maybe something not yet heard, but then you wander a lot... I imagine it was intentional, but with an eye toward performing the chorus, perhaps returning to G major 3 times in a short period... what do you think?

If I may, I don't know why, but at 96 I wouldn't have used that bass pattern; it has never been heard before... perhaps an alternative idea could have been to use an arpeggio by recycling the arpeggios from measure 22 or even better those in the area of measure 60. It feels a bit "sticky" to me... but I must admit that you fade out and close very well. It could be that that piece, which as soon as it is heard seems just placed there like that... helps achieve the effect you were looking for.

In general, you managed to do whatever you wanted melodically despite the characteristics of the starting material, and I hear a lot of your music in it. Although I feel nostalgia for the original material, which seems to appear only out of "duty" in its full original form, it is evident that you threw yourself headlong into the atmospheres of the second theme, which is derived from the first but with very different connotations. This is something I like.

I enjoyed listening to it

Comment on AleGozzo's string version

I find the design derived from the theme to be very musical (I am referring to the quarrel with Talentuoso) and I find that there are points in this piece that are very inspired or, at any rate, there are some beautiful surges. Some atmospheres are also sophisticated.

I wouldn't worry too much about the tonal paths, in the sense that what matters is that within the sonata form there are two clearly identifiable opposing forces and a ternary structure. Granted, in Classicism the ranges were well-defined, but since the style is not classical at all, why fossilize the paths—and this is why I asked my question about whether we all started from G minor. I say again, one could have dared more... and those chromaticisms in the theme indicated at the beginning of the topic by Punto Coronato were an open invitation.

Destroyed thought about the orchestration. Others thought about the rest... so I am telling you that I also enjoyed listening to this version of yours, the only one that has given me satisfaction regarding the orchestra so far (as far as the LABs are concerned)... even if it is for strings. Which is perfectly fine.

We will wait until the end of the year, Raffaele

For Raffaele

First of all, I find you much more grown compared to the first piece you presented a few years ago; it seems to me a very personal version, full of meaning from the starting material (something you tended to run away from... and quite a lot). You played with the ostinato which, in my opinion, is an uphill battle. Even the 2 voices are demanding to manage; finding the right variety and clashes so as not to weigh it down is not easy (I am referring to the beat of the initial part). Even though looking at the score makes me regret it (due to the presence of "edges" to be smoothed out, naivety, often doubling the melody... which should be "singing", etc.), I want to write that I find your piece interesting.

I hope you continue to participate; I know that from next year you will be very busy, but I think it will do you good to have a constant commitment even in this field.

I only add that you are a scoundrel! ...how was it? You were the one who didn't want to use sixteenth notes? Heh heh. Look, your eighth notes at 120 per quarter are rhythmically identical to my sixteenth notes at 66 per quarter. Only now you should make the effort to compare the "pointillism" of my texture against yours. ... nothing to say about not having heard the need... you little rascal

Until next time

For Raffaele

First of all, I find you have grown a lot compared to the first piece you presented a few years ago; it seems to me like a very personal version, full of the starting material (something you tended to run away from... and quite a lot). You played with the ostinato which, in my opinion, is an uphill battle.

I only used the cell that you provided in the first theme... I don't know if you are referring to this as an ostinato,

Beethoven teaches us that with 3 notes he can make a symphony. Let's just say I tried to use a cell as much as possible.

Even though looking at the score I regret it (due to the presence of "edges" to be smoothed out, naivety, I often repeat the melody... which should be "singing", etc.), I want to write that I find your piece interesting.

I didn't understand if you like it or not. Look, you can even tell me if you don't like it, I won't be offended.

Besides, one learns more from a "don't like" than from a "like".

I hope you continue to participate,

You can bet on it.

Additionally, I'll just say you are a rogue! ...how was it? You were the one who didn't want to use sixteenth notes? Heh heh. Look, your eighth notes at 120 per quarter are rhythmically identical to my sixteenth notes at 66 per quarter.

I was also left bewildered by this criticism :D

From measure 118, we see the breath of the main theme "disturbed" by the second pianist who perhaps got high during some pause and started firing off a series of sixteenth notes. So, setting the measure aside, I wanted to say that both to the ear and to the eye, there is a bit of satiety.

In my development, the sixteenth notes (eighth notes at 120) design a new way of making the cell heard with a character that is, let's say, dramatic.

Anyway, I envy your mastery of harmonization.

I am "interjecting" to point out to Zaccaria that the original piece is probably in B-flat, which changes a few points of view regarding the chromaticism of the theme (at the beginning of the topic I was interested, like others, in the matter).

Ah, always compliments for the consistency and the results. Well done!

raffaeleb wrote:

In my development, the semichromes (chromes at 120) draw a new way of making the cell heard with a, let's say, dramatic character.

Let's just say that the second theme proposed for diminution in triple counterpoint on the first theme in Frank's development is certainly a new way of making the thematic material heard in its entirety ...come on guys... and let's do this damn analysis ...

AbateFaria wrote:

it seems to close on Bb... which however doesn't arrive.... and it is understood more at the end of the "A" ... lumi?

In my opinion it is in Bb, so it starts on the sixth degree

With you, one doesn't sleep peaceful dreams... I'm logging on, besides the string of posts, another piece as well...

Let's say that the second theme proposed for diminution in triple counterpoint on the first theme in Frank's development is certainly a new way of making the thematic material be heard in its entirety

For AleGozzo, after overthinking the subject a bit, taking the original as a reference, the most "obvious" thing is what should have been done: it was enough to consider the starting material without overanalyzing it..

Note! Only after analyzing it did I discover that the meter changed in A1 (then what meter). Listening to it, you can't even perceive it... let's forget about B, which is harmonically challenging. When I heard the end of A1 I got pissed off, because why are singer-songwriter tracks always so beautiful?

---- Frank's Piece.

Hi, I'm back, but I won't be of much use, because this work is truly too much for my analytical abilities ... as long as it involves harmony I'll try, but when such mastery of counterpoint comes into play, I get completely lost ...

I had noticed the fragmentation at the beginning in the final measures, but catching 1st theme vs 2nd in triple counterpoint .... oh my god !!

So that initial listening guide page is truly useful; if you have time, keep going !!!!!

In any case, truly compliments, a piece incredibly dense with "wisdom" but one that sticks to you for 12 minutes without giving you a break and without being tiring to listen to, which is remarkable for a piano piece of such length.

bravo, very well done :)

the original is beautiful, I haven't delved deep into the harmonies but I believe they are the strength, given that the texture is uniform and the structure very simple.

enviable simplicity and clarity of thought, which is often perceived in composed pieces compared to us poor souls who overthink where to send the few proposed bars, as Talentuoso says

i remember the same "is that it?" effect with the pieces by Scriabin and Grieg .... not in the sense of disappointment but of economy of means that leads to a result that is not trivial but nonetheless direct and immediate.

But in the end, who does this blessed (original) piece belong to?

AleGozzo wrote:

but catching the 1st theme vs the 2nd in triple counterpoint .... oh my god !!

Just a classic stroke of luck, Talentuoso had understood something about those sixteenth notes, when Frank even spoke of a fugue ... it couldn't have just been the breakdown of the introduction ... so 1+1=2 (it took me quite a while to realize it... but...)

AleGozzo wrote:

i remember the same "is that all?" effect with pieces by Scriabin and Grieg .... not in the sense of disappointment but of economy of means that leads to a result that is not trivial but nonetheless direct and immediate.

It's true, as an attitude yes... but it sounds much more new ...

I thank Ale for the generous comment...

As for the alleged "original," I must confess that it is mine. The Cyrillic is part of the classic "prank" that I occasionally pull in the Labs. Usually, you massacre the originals; this time not... should I be worried?

The track was recorded by TheSimon, due to the fact that... basically, the theme of this workshop is unpublished, I made this choice for several reasons...

What can I say, I thank those who commented on this piece as well. I am glad that you liked it...

...I fell for it completely, it looked like it was copied from a book as old as the Bible ...