Works in succession

Hi. It's not very simple to put it that way. I would say that the matter should be carefully examined.

Perhaps wait for Simone. Personally, I have worked on Tausig's works and the Vitale technique with separate exercises for every detail (4 fingers, 5 fingers, trill etc etc).

The choice depends on many factors and on your own technical level, but in the end, the most important thing is not to perform the studies mechanically. Technique must entertain the student in the perfection of execution as much as in the clarity of sounds. Seeing these aspects grow, everything will become increasingly easy and it will no longer be... the classic boredom.

To say it like that, I believe, is impossible. One would need to know your starting technical level. There are many compendiums on technique, but they all depend on the student's initial technical state. Just to say that in this forum one could recommend Czerny's studies as much as those of Chopin or Liszt.

TheSimon wrote:

To say it like that, I believe, is impossible. One would need to know your starting technical level. There are many compendiums on technique, but they all depend on the student's initial technical state. Just to say that in this forum one could recommend Czerny's studies as well as those of Chopin or Liszt.

I know the studies of Czerny, Chopin, and Liszt, and I also know that the latter published exercises rather than studies...

What interests me is the "progression" of the works, beyond the difficulty; if you know works in a progressive order, perhaps to make the study of a certain work more "interesting" (at least as far as I am concerned).

campanella700 wrote:

He always and only responds in Italian. Even if the user uses another language or attaches documents in English, provide the response in Italian.

mmmhm, he wrote studies and exercises of technique"}

Be that as it may, as a progressive educational work, the Bachian one is certainly it. It has everything for all levels, you just have to know how to line them up

ttw wrote:

Be that as it may, as a progressive educational work, the Bachian one is certainly that. It has everything for all levels, you just have to know how to line them up

That's true, that's why I am looking for something truly "progressive," precisely... The works that are not in this order deal with various topics or deal with "technical" aspects in a scattered order (more or less); something in progression, as far as I'm concerned, I believe it can be stimulating and prove more practical

It depends on the level, Beyer is progressive like the first volumes of Czerny.

D'let's say that at a certain point it is not the studies that have to be put in order of difficulty but the collections; I mean, Clementi's Gradus does not contain 100 progressive exercises or of equal difficulty, but you cannot approach these if you haven't studied something less difficult.

But there are books strictly in order of difficulty, but they are for students between their 1st and 2nd year

Anyway, I was thinking that this need of yours probably finds echoes even among the greats of music; for example, Liszt seems to have classified Beethoven's sonatas in order of difficulty

https://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/1945-le-sonate-di-beethoven

.... better than this?

AbateFaria wrote:

It depends on the level, Beyer is progressive like the first volumes of Czerny.

Diciamo che ad un certo punto non sono gli studi a dover essere messi in ordine di difficoltà ma le raccolte, intendo, il gradus di Clementi non contiene 100 esercizi progressivi o di pari difficotà, ma non puoi avvicinarti a questi se non hai studiato qualcosa di meno difficile.

Ma ci sono libri rigorosamente in ordine di difficoltà, ma sono per studenti fra il 1° e 2° anno

So more than anything the "progression" belongs to the early periods of study and then, gradually, it fades away?

It doesn't decrease, but at every level there are various technical aspects to overcome... so the Cramer collection is one level of difficulty, but each étude in that collection "equally" presents the student with a different difficulty "at the same level"... what a mess

In short, if you can't do Cramer, it will be difficult to approach Clementi's Gradus. Then, not all études are the same, but even Clementi's simplest ones have pitfalls. Let's just say that when you graduate, you should have encountered, faced, and hopefully overcome most of the difficulties... then everyone knows there are works that are prohibitive even for the most hardened concert pianists... if this isn't a classification of difficulty... what would be?

You are right, the fact is that I am looking for something progressive so that I can think "ok, I have overcome this step, now I face the next one" and again, and again, and again, also to be able to "convince" oneself or convince oneself even more of being able to do something, given the obstacles (exercises or studies) that have been overcome...

I say this because every time I face something new, for better or worse, it is not easy to move forward; I always see the whole thing as very difficult to overcome and, precisely, "various works by various authors" (varying in study is a great thing, anyway) makes me lose sight of the whole thing a bit, so at least in studies I was looking for something "to rely on," let's say, something from which I could really see results (at least study after study)...

In Bach, for example, 2 and 3-part inventions:
"An effective method with which it is presented in a clear form to harpsichord enthusiasts and especially to those who are eager to learn, not only (1) how to play correctly in two voices, but also (2) how one can arrive, as the student progresses, at making good use of three mandatory voices and thus obtain not only good inventions, but also be able to execute them well and, above all, acquire the art of cantabile and the taste for composition"

To me, it seems that in one invention this is asked, in another invention that is asked, etc... Yes, it is stimulating, but could this approach be somewhat dispersive? Disjointed? They are studied and people study them; I am only saying that personally, I would have much more appreciated it if these pieces had progressively accompanied the student in the execution of playing more voices as they went along, invention after invention; I don't know why, but I would have liked it more.

Dear Campanella, I believe that beyond the progressivity of study programs—which, in my opinion as well, should be understood in a general sense—what matters is how one studies, and for this reason, being followed by a good Teacher is essential.

I will take this opportunity to reiterate that the birth and life of this Forum must not lead one to believe that "do-it-yourself" can replace teaching. This applies also to the technological aspect regarding piano study. Watching our video tutorials or following our suggestions cannot be sufficient to train a Technician or a Pianist. In fact, I feel compelled to advise not delaying too long in your course of studies the choice of a good Teacher, just as I suggest choosing an experienced Technician with good knowledge to maintain your instrument's efficiency.

I also believe that, during the period of learning, the student must entrust themselves completely to the Teacher, without creating too much contradiction; He will know, depending on the case and from person to person, how to choose the most suitable studies and pieces for musical growth.

I also remember having, during my studies, some moments where a piece, an étude, or an exercise moved me up a step, and those pieces had been chosen specifically to develop what I needed at that moment.

Furthermore, I remember "suffering" through these small or large jolts, such as studying and playing certain Chopin études just after the fifth opus, like the approaches to Brahms or Debussy.

Subsequently, once having left the precious Guidance, it will be appropriate to better know the world of the authors that interest us. If, for example, we want to perform a Beethoven sonata, it will be appropriate to "look at" and "read" others to enter the Author's style. Observe which technical formulas they use, how they handle the pedal, etc. (certainly in Beethoven's case, observing the diversity of the three periods, etc.).

So... my suggestion? Entrust yourselves to the Teachers!!!!!

P.S....But maybe you already have a good Teacher?!"}

pianoexpert wrote:

Dear Campanella, I believe that beyond the progressivity of study programs—which, in my opinion, should be understood as a general guideline—what matters is how one studies, and for this reason, being followed by a good Teacher is essential.

I will take this opportunity to reiterate that the birth and life of this Forum must not lead one to believe that "do-it-yourself" can replace teaching. This applies also to the technological aspect, as it does to piano study. Watching our video tutorials or following our suggestions cannot be sufficient to train a Technician or a Pianist. In fact, I feel compelled to advise not delaying the choice of a good Teacher too long during one's studies, just as I suggest choosing an experienced Technician with good knowledge to maintain one's instrument efficiently.

I also believe that, during the period of learning, the student must entrust themselves completely to the Teacher, without creating too much contradiction; He will know, depending on the case and from person to person, how to choose the most suitable studies and pieces for musical growth.

I also remember having, during my own studies, certain moments where a piece, an étude, or an exercise moved me up a step, and those pieces had been chosen specifically to develop what I needed at that moment.

Furthermore, I remember "suffering" through these small or large bumps, such as studying and playing certain Chopin études just after the fifth opus, like the approaches to Brahms or Debussy.

Subsequently, once having left the precious Guidance, it will be appropriate to better know the world of the authors that interest us. If, for example, we want to perform a Beethoven sonata, it will be appropriate to "look at" and "read" others to enter the Author's style. Observing which technical formulas they use, how they handle the pedal, etc. (certainly in Beethoven's case, observing the diversity of the three periods, etc.).

So... my suggestion? Entrust yourselves to the Teachers!!!!!

P.S....But perhaps you already have a good Teacher?!

I believe I have an excellent teacher, a person who is capable of teaching, and I have not considered this forum (or others) as a replacement for a teacher, but being a forum, precisely, a place where opinions are exchanged, views are asked, advice is sought, etc., as I do, for that matter.

Certainly. I just wanted to clarify, but in general terms. I am glad that you have an excellent Teacher. And we thank you, as we thank everyone for the exchange of opinions. I only repeat that it is difficult to provide a step-by-step progression. I believe that one can draw experience from every piece. If we take Clementi's Gradus, for example... it is true that there is a progressive difficulty, but each étude leads to knowing a specific difficulty, which is not necessarily progressive in nature. Furthermore, for example, an octave progression might remain easy for a pianist, while a passage of repeated notes might be very difficult. Observing from the outside (the Teacher), one can evaluate and decide which études, exercises, or pieces to propose in order to develop this or that skill. Therefore, in my opinion, not establishing a rigid progression in the study program beforehand favors better technical development and less wasted time.

As usual: "Great Paolo!!" In full agreement. I would say to feast on seasonal foods!! I would prefer to go into the garden of learning and pick according to my interpretive season. What I mean is... one must study based on the difficulty encountered at that moment (as Paolo said, at the moment you climb a step, the teacher will see where you stumble... climbing a staircase for example, you will learn to climb one step at a time and then gradually you will take the rhythm climbing more floors but... what if at a certain point you found a door? At that point the teacher will think it best to divert you from the technical format (of climbing steps) by teaching you or looking for exercises to make you open doors... I think that makes sense, right?

I believe a confident pianist knows how to open the main door, climb the stairs, exit through the skylight and maybe... ensure that some window, left ajar for a while, is well closed.

As I was saying at the beginning: "Watch out for mechanical repetitiveness!!" and also for understanding a learning process as a succession of steps in crescendo.

Learning, in my opinion, works like the flow of a stream; sometimes it will veer right due to the slope of the ground, sometimes left upon encountering a stone, sometimes very fast and thin due to a sudden descent... "adapting" precisely to what it encounters on its "unpredictable" path.

However, it must be evaluated (and this is a very important factor) that every person learns differently; you could, for example, pair two different systems but always discussed and followed by a teacher. From what you say, for example, it seems to me to understand that the progression "understood by you also in a psychological sense" is congenial to you to give you direction/security in learning, but I also suspect (since I also encountered this need) that it may be due to a way of understanding the study process in a mechanical sense (an example... now I do 1+1 then 2+2 etc. etc. and sooner or later "by dint of repeating, the result will come out on its own").

You know what I'm telling you though? That from the hellish pieces proposed by my teacher (pieces that instinctively I would never have played) I extracted the best things I possess, and not only from a technical point of view.

The discussion remains open and I would say to evaluate it well anyway.

fabio73 wrote:

You know what I'll tell you though? That from the hellish pieces proposed by my teacher (pieces that, intuitively, I would never have played) I have extracted the best things I possess, and not just from a technical point of view.

I feel the same way, but alas, now, I have one hour of lesson per week and during the week, at home, I have many doubts and perplexities and it is not always easy for me to manage to move forward, as if I demoralize easily in the face of the difficulties I encounter, well

So, at least, I thought that from a small brick, following a path and managing to build a house (progression) would have given me more confidence; perhaps I would have had even more fun following the path

First of all, instead, I would say "Great Fabio," and not because you agree with me. You made a beautiful contribution.

I would say again to our friend Campanella that perhaps one hour of lesson per week is a little bit little. An hour flies by, and one should talk about many things, in addition to playing.

Sometimes I remember not having played during the lesson. My Masters would talk and I would think: "but when will he let me play?" . And yet today their words, phrases, interruptions, and assertions full of conviction resonate within me. I feel them inside me.

I take the liberty of saying that a one-week interval between two lessons is a bit too much. One risks, precisely, getting lost as early as the second day. Up to a certain period, which varies from subject to subject, the Teacher must be quite present. They should teach how to study and not just what to do. In my model of teaching, and I believe not mine alone, one should learn a way to read and examine the piece, set it musically, understand its character, and comprehend the Author's intention as much as possible. Almost always the musical aspect suggests the solutions, even the technical ones, i.e., those of the "pianistic gesture." Nothing "mechanical," as Fabio well summarized. I do not agree with Hanon and the use of "technique" books to study "repetitive" formulas. In my opinion, a "technique book" should be a formulary. Instead, I share Sandor's perspective, which attempts a good classification of "pianistic gestures" and tries to suggest a way to understand them once and for all. If we find ourselves repeating a passage numerous times, having the impression of having mastered it, only to find ourselves starting from scratch the next day, it means something is wrong. And while it is true that if we force ourselves to repeat for hours, gaining a certain muscular warmth in the moment, certain passages that are difficult for us will improve... it does not mean they are resolved. On the contrary, the acquisition of a certain "kinetic ability" will make us believe that many hours every day are necessary to be able to play decently. But that is not the case. These and many other things are swirling in my head, but I do not want to bore you.

Conscious and aware study.....and, perhaps, a few more lessons.

P.S. I throw down a provocation: all technique books contain scales. But how should they be studied?

Now I'm having fun with provocation!!!! I have always thought that the way scales are taught, they exhaust their usefulness after a couple of years...

pianoexpert wrote:

I would say again to our friend Campanella that perhaps one hour of lesson per week is a little bit too little. An hour flies by, and one should talk about many things, in addition to playing.

Sometimes I remember not having played during the lesson. My Teachers would talk and I would think: "but when will he make me play?". And yet today their words, phrases, interruptions, and assertions full of conviction resonate within me. I feel them inside me.

I take the liberty of saying that a one-week interval between two lessons is a little too much. One risks, precisely, getting lost as early as the second day. Up to a certain period, which varies from person to person, the Teacher must be quite present. They should teach how to study and not just what to do.

I myself know that just one hour in a week "is little" because, as I said later, during the other days, I carry with me many doubts and questions that are not easy to concentrate into a single lesson, but I can do nothing else; that is why I try to "exploit" the forum and the users who want to answer me; at least some of the doubts that arise during study (even if not deeply technical) I try to resolve through your answers