Survey/proposal

Yes right Frank ... I'm a bit foggy during this period ...

so

- escape - in progress

- bass to be harmonized - end of June

- piece for piano - end of July

- Orchestra on Chopin prelude - end of September

The proposed model for the harmonization, however, is written in a texture more suited to a soprano, so should we interpret it as vocal music?

Piccinesco wrote:

However, the proposed model for harmonization is written on a texture more suited to a soprano, so should we interpret it as given singing?

...now you can see some elaborations

Even though the workshops have been poorly attended lately, I am bringing the issue up again.

There was a proposal for the choral piece for late December 2013, but since we are a bit ahead with the orchestration of Chopin's prelude, I think we will have to move it to 2014.

For the text, there was a proposal from Frank regarding "De Profundis".

What shall we do?

.... De profundis for me

Frank wrote:

.... De profundis for me

For me, the De Profundis is fine.

we have to decide on the date.

I will gladly listen

To me, De Profundis seems very demanding, even because of the length of the text... how do you see an Ave Maria?

But yes Zaccaria, it's been a while since I wanted to write one... for me it's indifferent, let's go with the Ave Maria

Besides, I remember this topic:

http://www.pianoconc...maria-in-latino

so that those who are less practiced with Latin don't risk messing up the syllabification

RStrauss, since you have already joined, what do you think?

I've already written one in the past, but I will write another one.

It's fine with me.

However, the next one will be a "De Profundis".

For the deadline I was thinking of mid-March 2014... given the getaway for mid-April 2014. What do you think?

cristiank83 wrote:

It would also be curious to have a workshop where prompts for pieces are written instead of the piece itself, in order to evaluate the creativity of the composers, their preferred languages, etc. (so far, in my opinion, this has only happened with choral pieces since only the text is provided).

When conducting workshops with subjects drawn from history, it is obvious that, having to respect them, we consequently find ourselves constrained to a certain type of language.

I'll try to give my two cents even though I have only participated in a few LABs.

I also remember the Lied; actually, there was even a workshop on variations (on a Berg series, for example). I heard very modern things. In my opinion, it depends on how far one wants to push the composer. For example, Geppino on Brahms, Grieg, and Scriabin (and Jam Sessions?) did whatever he wanted... not to mention Frank on Rachmaninoff (and Moadale's elaboration?) and on Schumann's bass. Gozzo always makes "alternative" choices. I repeat, it depends on what one wants to do. Incidentally, and to stay on theme, I have also heard double fugues (Altieri and Frank/Gozzo).

In effect, I didn't quite understand what you mean by "writing prompts for pieces instead of the piece itself"... an explanation would help me, so that I can then give my opinion. When I have more time, I would like to participate again.

cristiank83 wrote:

[...]

It would also be curious to have a workshop where prompts for pieces are written instead of the piece itself, in order to evaluate the creativity of composers, their preferred languages, etc. (so far, in my opinion, this has only happened in choral pieces since only the text is provided).

By conducting workshops with subjects drawn from history, it is obvious that, having to respect them, we consequently find ourselves constrained to a certain type of language.

Thank you for the compliments.

As far as your proposal regarding writing prompts is concerned, I would be completely in agreement because, as you yourself say, it would be essential to measure one's own creativity even, so to speak, on a blank sheet of paper. The only thing is that one would need to find a way to establish a common thread among the participants, i.e., a common processing platform; otherwise, "this is what I wrote" already exists. Off the top of my head, for example, it occurs to me that one could establish the harmonic basis of the subject, or that it could be freely built upon a given bass line (without this constituting a voice, obviously).

...Or else (perhaps it is even better) one could establish formal boundaries...! For example, that the subject (though free) must be protetic (or tetic, or acephalous), be contained within such an interval and, say, be non-square by deficiency... This does not seem like a bad idea to me, because it emphasizes the formal aspects of the phrase more without imposing any harmonic constraints; thus a personal style or taste could express itself in an extremely free and creative way, even within the agreed conditions. Let's see what good Frank thinks about it.

I thank Faria for his historical memory and for his passion in eagerly following the workshops. In this regard, I take the opportunity to remind you that the list of initiatives can be found on this page:

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/1141-indice-dei-laboratori/

in effect, there is a topic (link at the bottom of the page) for proposals (THIS):

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/528-sondaggioproposta/

The beautiful thing about OUR workshops is that we decide what to do, so I am waiting for concrete proposals in this specific topic. Moreover, I had already invited Cristian from memory to do so, but nothing has ever arrived.

I will try to add something to 2 very sensible things that I have already read:

@Croma

>“The only thing is that a way should be found to establish a common thread between the participants,

> i.e., a common processing platform, otherwise 'this is what I wrote' already exists.”

If there is not a minimum of sharing—a theme, a subject, a sound, a noise, a text, an audio track, images... everyone can do whatever they like, so it falls under the section 'This is what I wrote'.

@Faria

I agree that everything is in our hands and 2 factors can come into play: maturity and the participant's choices.

You can decontextualize or respect the original connotation of the material; I understand that decontextualization is the most difficult thing to do. Therefore, conceptually, I think it is "penalizing" to start from the assumption that if someone wants to express themselves in areas different from the workshop topic, they must make this additional effort.

However, I take the liberty of making some considerations regarding certain aspects, more related to the structure:

As Faria reminds us, there have been very free workshops: for the sonata form, I gave only one incomplete theme (3 bars). Therefore, it is to be completed at will and from which to derive the second... and why not, the third theme. It could be reharmonized; in the end, they were deliberately well-dressed triads.

Regarding the fugue, I can say that the problem is relative. I myself, in a workshop, wrote a double fugue where the first subject was derived from an elaboration of the one given. Aside from this, another subject and 2 CS [subject/countersubject] were practically unpublished. Also with reference to Croma's proposal:

> for example, that the harmonic base of the subject could be established,

> or that it could be freely built on a given bass

> (without this constituting a voice, obviously).”

From my point of view, this can already be done; the important thing is that that material is present, traceable, and triggers the spark."

As for the piece for pf [piano/forte], likewise, the possibility of writing in panels has existed for at least a century—why couldn't the given theme be one of the panels... or even the first one?

Regarding aspects more related to syntax, which I think is the subject of contention, we need to understand each other on certain things. Over time, we have addressed the following composers to vary the difficulty, to challenge ourselves with great masters, and to feel at ease "in turns":

Mancini, Bach, Cherubini, Grieg, Chopin, Brahms, Scriabin, Berg, Rachmaninoff, D’Annunzio (but also one of my themes and one by RStrauss... I am waiting for proposals)

Incidentally, I proposed this workshop, which was very free (blank sheet, responding precisely to a prompt from Cristian), where I was the only participant. Someone had the chance to listen to Mirror Seven.

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/731-laboratorio-vconcorso-musica-da-camera-2012/

and there was also the opportunity to present the piece to a competition...

You have had the chance to discover over the last 5 years that WE are very open to any proposal, provided they actually arrive.

I wrote all this not to justify or show a desire not to change, but so that new proposals take into account what has been done and is most well-known to those who have always participated and perhaps have these aspects more present. My feeling is that the freer the workshops are, the less participation there is... but I am hopeful. I was even talking with Red about starting from a sound, and with RStrauss about starting from a video (I had even proposed cartoons, but no one showed up or was heard)... so, honestly and clearly, become promoters of the initiatives yourselves. Personally, I have no problem; as long as the thing holds up and respects the only constraint mentioned by Croma.

I hope to have been helpful; intentions are always good, so take this post as an exhortation to propose. It has been a while since I last chose the "subjects" (in a broad sense) of the LABs, but in turns, I try to welcome the proposals of the moment. Regarding the piece for pf, next LAB, a forum member chose it based on 3 composers not yet covered (Romantics and early post-war).

So from

To compare Mancini to Rachmaninoff, the gap seems wide to me; certainly, one can go even further (in the post-WWII era), but we should also contribute something ourselves. I remember that for the 400th anniversary of Gesualdo's death, a competition was started with 3 pieces by the author himself. I doubt that the participants submitted seventeenth-century madrigals

Perhaps I have written too much, I await abundant and passionate replies.

cristiank83 wrote:

x Frank: It would also be curious to have a workshop where one writes the ideas for pieces instead of the piece itself, in order to evaluate the creativity of composers, their preferred languages, etc. (so far, in my opinion, this has only happened with choral pieces since only the text is provided).

By conducting workshops with subjects drawn from history, it is obvious that, having to respect them, we consequently find ourselves constrained to a certain type of language.

I agree. In my opinion, these workshops are very useful nonetheless, for various reasons, but it is also certain that they condition creativity in some way, and not only negatively, but also positively. For example, a subject like this, in my view, is already beautiful in itself, so it has a very positive impact on the final aesthetic result of the fugue. To put it badly, one would have to try hard to ruin it (as I have done, for that matter).

Bianca wrote:

I agree. In my opinion, these workshops are very useful anyway, for various reasons, but it is also certain that they influence creativity in some way, and not only negatively, but also positively. For example, a subject like this, in my view, is already beautiful on its own, so it has a very positive impact on the final aesthetic result of the fugue. To put it badly, one has to try hard to ruin it (as I did, for that matter).

Never mind, we overlapped

Anyway, I agree, the strength of the material is a difficulty to be managed. To put it briefly, it's not that Gesualdo is any less than Mozart, so I am increasingly convinced that freedom is not provided by the material or the blank sheet, but by the composer's own wits. That is, if one is interested in showing them. I love respecting the material for the sake of measuring myself against it, but when I want to, I do whatever I please

...and you, who tore Strauss's theme to "pieces"...you could have done the same with the subject of the fugue. If you liked it as you say, what is the problem with measuring yourself against it? You can harmonize a chromatic subject however you like; write a quadruple Fugue and reduce the given material to a small slice of the piece...

Anyway, at the next workshop on the fugue, I will try to give you an incomplete subject that will allow you to do whatever you want: neo-baroque, neo-classical, neo-romantic or post...post...post whatever you want. Let me know if it might interest you

I already have in mind how to open up this kind of possibility.

Anyway, I remind you once again about this:

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/731-laboratorio-vconcorso-musica-da-camera-2012/

We can try a new experiment... I'm working on it

Frank wrote:

Anyway, I recall this again:

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/731-laboratorio-vconcorso-musica-da-camera-2012/

We can try a new experiment... I'm working on it

... in fact, I feel like a worm for not having participated

Frank wrote:

Anyway, at the next lab on fugue, I will try to give you an incomplete subject that will allow you to do whatever you want: neo-Baroque, neo-classical, neo-romantic or post...post...post whatever you want. Let me know if this might interest you

I must say it sounds intriguing.

Frank wrote:

If you liked it as you say, what is the problem with measuring ourselves against it. You can harmonize a chromatic subject however you like; write a quadruple Fugue and reduce the given material to a small slice of the piece...

Anyway, I remind you again of this:

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/731-laboratorio-vconcorso-musica-da-camera-2012/

We can try a new experiment... I'm working on it

no, but in fact I have no problem
in effect, I have written more than one fugue on this subject, but only one with the exact theme. The others are various transformations.

And I reiterate that for me it is useful to have constraints, otherwise it would no longer be a workshop.

From my side, for a year, since I joined this forum, I have tried to participate in all the workshops, and I will continue to do so as much as my available time allows