Types Of Replacement

raffaeleb wrote:

And this one?

C7 / B7 / Bb7 / G

Can you describe the reasoning? I assume that for Bb7 you enharmonically thought of A#, a tritone away from D ... but for B7?

raffaeleb wrote:

Excuse me, I wanted to ask something.

In the case of a turnaround

C+/ A- / D-7 / G7

substituting, how many varieties can be obtained?

Among the many, does this one fit?

C+ / C#°/ D-7 / G7

If by C+ you mean a C major triad with a major seventh, yes: C#° is the VII of D minor, it has a function analogous to A7, a secondary dominant (V of II).

P.S. I think it would be more appropriate for a chord like C-E-G-B to use Cmaj7 or C∆; C+ generally refers to an augmented triad (C, E, G#).

raffaeleb wrote:

And this one?

C7 / B7 / Bb7 / G

I find this one a bit strange; let's just say it isn't a substitution of the chords in the progression you mentioned at the beginning; at least not in the sense normally understood by "substitution," that is, replacing one chord with another without substantially altering its harmonic function.

JamSession wrote:

Sure, but you mean the half-diminished on C#, so C#°7... right?

I think they meant a diminished seventh chord (C#-E-G-Bb); with the term half-diminished I would think of a seventh of the III species (C#-E-G-B): C#Ø.

P.S. A# is 4 tones away from D ;-)

DrJellyfish wrote:

I believe they meant a diminished seventh chord (C#-E-G-Bb); with the term half-diminished, I would think of a seventh of the III species (C#-E-G-B): C#Ø.

Me too, then "°" doesn't make any sense at all

DrJellyfish wrote:

P.S. A# is 4 tones away from D ;-)

raffaeleb wrote:

Excuse me, I wanted to ask something.

In the case of a turnaround

C+/ A- / D-7 / G7

how many varieties can be obtained by substituting?

Starting from I VI II V (C∆ A-7 D-7 G7)

we could transform the VI and the II into secondary dominants (C∆ A7 D7 G7),

substitute the A7 with C#dim (practically an A7b9 without the root);

then perform a tritone substitution of all the dominant chords (C∆ Eb7 Ab7), and more or less all possible combinations of these chords;

one also happens to find C∆ Eb∆ Ab∆ Db∆ (see in Lady Bird) as a variant of the previous formula, which can be thought of as a particular tritone substitution or a modal interchange;

if the turnaround repeats, you could substitute the I degree with the III (e.g., E-7 instead of C∆) or with the dominant of the VI (e.g., E7 instead of C∆), except, obviously, in the final cadence.

Sorry for the "°"

but how do you do a half-diminished, i.e., the zero with a slash and the delta?

Anyway, yes you are right jelli, it is indeed half-diminished.

As for the B7, I was also a bit doubtful, but to my ear it sounded "possible".

Could there be another possibility?

C7 / Eb7 D7 / G7

raffaeleb wrote:

Anyway, yes you're right, jelli is indeed half-diminished.

... I think there is a bit of confusion regarding the abbreviations; it's one thing to have a diminished seventh, and another to have a half-diminished seventh, which is the third species used on the VII degree of the major mode and on the II degree of the minor mode.

Some classify "all" seventh chords built on the seventh degree as leading-tone sevenths (whether they are fifth or third species); since the third species is also found on the second degree of minor scales anyway, personally I prefer to differentiate them with terminology

Frank I am working on the scan. I don't know how long it will take but I will get it done

Frank wrote:

... I think there is a bit of confusion regarding the abbreviations; one thing is the diminished seventh, another is the half-diminished seventh, i.e., the third species which is used on the VII degree of the major mode and on the II degree of the minor mode.

Some classify "all" seventh chords built on the seventh degree as leading-tone sevenths (whether they are fifth or third species); since the third species is also found on the second degree of minor scales anyway, personally I prefer to differentiate them with terminology

yes... indeed we find them all on the VII degree of different minor scales, however I also prefer to differentiate them because the II species seventh (Ø) is also used (and especially so) as the II degree of the minor mode (after all, even traditional classification distinguishes them).

in short:

∆ = maj7 = ∆7 = Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 7th (e.g.: C, E, G, B) = IV type

7 [dominant seventh] = Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th (e.g.: C, E, G, Bb) = I type

-7 [minor seventh] = Root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th (e.g.: C, Eb, G, Bb) = II type

Ø = -7b5 = min7b5 etc. [half-diminished] = Root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th, minor 7th (e.g.: C, Eb, Gb, Bb) = III type

o = o7 = dim7 etc. [diminished] = Root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th, diminished 7th (e.g.: C, Eb, Gb, Bbb) = V type

I put them in this order because it is easy to memorize each type by remembering which interval changes compared to the previous one (in bold).

If you prefer to memorize them by type, play a G7 on the piano and move your hand to the right on the white keys: G7 (I), Am7 (II), BØ (III), C∆ (IV);

the only one left is the diminished seventh (V).

P.S. some people using only the "o" symbol mean the diminished triad and prefer to use "o7" (which is actually more correct) to indicate the diminished seventh chord; in fact, in chord symbols, "o" often implies the chord including the seventh, because the diminished triad alone is rarely used as it would be ambiguous.

Similarly, it is easy to find a symbol consisting of only a letter (e.g.: C), which does not necessarily indicate a simple major triad but also a ∆ chord (e.g.: C∆) or a 6 chord (e.g.: C6). But that is another matter...

Di sicuro utili:

http://www.jazzitalia.net/lezioni/chitarra4/c4_lezione5.asp

http://www.jazzitalia.net/lezioni/chitarra4/c4_lezione8.asp

http://www.jazzitalia.net/lezioni/piano/p_sostituzioni3.asp

http://www.jazzitalia.net/lezioni/piano/p_sostituzioni2.asp

http://www.jazzitalia.net/lezioni/piano/p_sostituzioni.asp

http://www.jazzitalia.net/lezioni/chitarra9/c9_lezione4.asp

http://www.jazzitalia.net/lezioni/chitarra9/c9_lezione3.asp

But where did you find all these symbols? they are not on my keyboard

on Mac they are like this: Ø = shift + alt + o, or alt + o; ∆ = alt + h.

i believe there are also combinations on PC that produce these symbols.

Nothing to be done on the PC, it's not the same thing.

I should look for the ASCII code manual

maybe the function will be there

raffaeleb wrote:

Nothing to be done, on the PC it's not the same thing.

I should look for the ASCII code manual

maybe the function will be there

You just have to go in Word from the "Insert" menu, "New Symbol", under "Other" choose maestro and that's it... copy and paste wherever you want.

... if I'm not mistaken, you can also find the character map in the Control Panel.