Types Of Replacement

Oops! Your post only just appeared to me... something strange must have happened, one of mine appeared twice. Anyway, tell me if I understood correctly: do you put the root (preferably the tonic) in the bass with your left hand? Or in the right-hand arrangement? Let me explain: if someone has to accompany alone, they generally put the roots in the bass and with the right hand, or with the right hand and the other fingers of the left, they arrange the chord; if there is also a bass player, you can omit the root; if you have to accompany yourself during a solo (always with the bass), you will use the left hand without the roots, in 3 or 4 parts.

Generally speaking, I would use this system:

_ in 3 parts (from low to high):

3, 7 and a tension (generally the 9) or another chordal note;

7, 3 and a tension (generally the 13) or another chordal note;

_ in 4 parts:

3, 7 and two tensions or one tension and one chordal note;

7, 3 and two tensions or one tension and one chordal note.

For example: G7

in 3 parts (from low to high):

_F, B, E (13) [or also Eb (b13) or D# (#5), or Db (b5) or C# (#11) or D (chordal, 5)].

_B, F, A (9) [or also Ab (b9), A# (#9), or G (chordal, root);

let's say that this way you always have (when possible) the notes that define the harmonic function of the chord and with the left thumb you choose the tensions to add depending on the harmonic context.

in 4 parts (two hands):

_F, B, E (and all possible variants), A (and all possible variants);

_B, F, A (and all possible variants), E (and all possible variants);

If you have to play these chords with a single hand, it is almost always possible to transpose the highest voice an octave lower.

If there is a bass player, you can almost always omit the root and often the fifth, when it is not altered. The chord should maintain its functionality.

Then it is also a matter of personal taste.

If this was the meaning of your question, I hope I have been helpful.

I believe that substitutions should be viewed in relation to the "main chord families of Western Harmony"

Here is my opinion.

MAJ (major chord - ionian or lydian): no substitution

VII (seventh chord with dominant function - mixolydian): e.g., I replace CVII with CVII+5 (third degree of the Ab lydian augmented scale), C phrygian, C locrian, C super locrian

MINOR (minor chord - dorian): e.g., D- I replace it with D locrian, D aeolian, D phrygian

MINOR SEVENTH b5 (first element of the II V I minor-locrian progression) e.g.: D-7b5 I replace it with D dorian

VII+5 (seventh chord with dominant function - super locrian) e.g.: CVII+5 I replace it with C phrygian, C locrian, C mixolydian, CVII+5 (third degree of the Ab lydian augmented scale)

By substitution, I mean that one chord/scale is replaced by another chord/scale where the mode used is different and therefore the tonal environment is different.

If a chord/scale is simply altered while maintaining the same mode, I do not see it as a substitution, but as an alteration of the original chord/scale which is then used because it possesses nuances pleasing to the musician.

modale wrote:

By substitution, I mean that one chord/scale is replaced by another chord/scale where the mode used is different and therefore the tonal environment is different.

If a chord/scale is simply altered while maintaining the same mode, I don't see it as a substitution, but as an alteration of the original chord/scale which is then used because it possesses nuances pleasing to the musician.

Substitutions usually don't "alter" the tonal framework, they only add tension, or am I wrong?

I didn't quite understand how modality fits into all of this, in the sense that it is enough to shift the discussion to key/mode or other. Forgive my naive question.

It seems to me a question that is anything but naive; in fact, it is a somewhat thorny issue. Modale - certainly this nickname in this thread causes a bit of confusion ;-) - makes a rather complex argument, including modality itself, whereas I was only referring to the tonal context. In plain words, I was saying that if an chord foreign to those belonging to the scale appears within a tonal context, there are two possibilities: either there is a modulation, or that chord fulfills a particular function without, however, significantly altering the harmonic functions of the piece; for example: if in a IV V I major progression I replace the IV (maj7) with a IV 'borrowed' from the minor mode (let's say a m7), the harmonic color and the choice of notes to use change, but the functions always remain subdominant, dominant, and tonic.

Returning to the question, I think there is a rather delicate point: understanding to what extent we remain in tonality. Let me explain: if in the key of C major I use DØ, G7#5#9, and Cmaj7, I will have to modify the C major scale so that it becomes compatible with the alterations introduced by the chords; therefore, I could use the C natural minor scale (or, if you prefer, D Locrian) or the sixth mode of F melodic minor on the DØ, and the seventh mode of Ab minor (G superlocrian) on the G7#5#9.

The fact that thinking of these scales as modes might facilitate our visualization and fingering does not make this piece a modal piece.

Again, for example: guitarists are used to thinking in terms of modes due to positions and fingerings, so you will often hear it said that over D-7, G7, C one can use D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian respectively; but if this implied a transformation of the piece into modal, even Mozart's Sonata K545 would be modal. As I was telling you, it is somewhat slippery ground, so I don't know if this explanation has clarified your ideas or confused them even more... :-)

Still referring to D-7, G7, Cmaj7: if we replace the first two chords with, for example, a II of C Phrygian (Dbmaj7) and a V of C Lydian (Gmaj7), we seriously compromise the harmonic functions. In this case, I would think in terms of modes.

the fact that thinking of these scales as modes might facilitate visualization and fingering does not make this piece a modal piece.

Furthermore, for example: guitarists are used to thinking in terms of modes due to positions and fingerings, which is why you will often hear that on D-7, G7, C one can use respectively D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian, but if this implied a transformation of the piece into modal, even Mozart's Sonata K545 would be modal. As I was telling you, it is somewhat slippery ground, so I don't know if this explanation has clarified or confused your ideas even more... :-)

I fully agree with the concept expressed by Drjellyfish.

Another field in terms of substitutions is the use of quartal chords

JazzMania wrote:

Another field regarding substitutions is the use of quartal chords

Information had already been requested from Modale on the matter and in relation to tonal discourse... but I don't seem to have ever read a response; since your post resumes the discussion and I have formed an idea of my own... I would like to read your responses regarding the criteria and, in any case, the mechanisms behind them.

Chords arranged in fourths do not follow rules that are all that different from those arranged in thirds (I don't mean just perfect fourths); some voicings I already proposed above were arranged in fourths. If we want to maintain the harmonic identity of the chord, in general terms, we should have the 3rd and the 7th in the lower voices.

E.g.: C13(9): Bb, E, A, D, G, C (it is not necessary to use all the upper voices); C7alt: E, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb; CØ: Gb, C, F, Bb, Eb (in this case the third is found in the soprano and could also be omitted because the color of this chord can also be rendered with just the root, diminished fifth, and minor seventh), etc.

In some quartal arrangements typical of modal music, the insertion of a major third is allowed (imagine a pentatonic in wide position), for example in So What:

from low to high: (E), A, D, G, B and (D), G, C, F, A, precisely called "So what chords". In modal music, it is possible to use any quartal arrangement of the reference scale.

Curiosity Dr, but are you talking about the arrangement or the construction of quartal chords?

mmm... I would say arrangement, at least regarding the tonal aspect

I reiterate what has already been said:

"By substitution, I mean that one chord/scale is replaced by another chord/scale where the mode used is different and therefore the tonal environment is different.

If a chord/scale is simply altered while maintaining the same mode, I do not see it as a substitution, but as an alteration of the original chord/scale which is therefore used because it possesses nuances pleasing to the musician"

Quartal chords fall under the alterations of the fundamental tertian chord (I agree with Dr Jellifish when speaking of arrangement or spacing, if you will). Quartal harmony is something else entirely and must be framed within Hindemith's conception of overtones: C, C octave, G, F, A, E, Eb, Ab, D, Bb, Db, B, F#-

As you can see in the succession of overtones according to Hindemith, the importance of the fifth interval remains: C, G-

but the third note is not an E as in traditional overtones, but rather an F.

modale wrote:

Quartal harmony is something else entirely

I agree, in fact my request was oriented precisely toward this ... even if I gave myself a slightly different answer, taking into consideration the evolution of the triad from the 1700s to today.

A process that has led in an increasingly evolved way to enriching the chord, adding notes, increasing the overlap of thirds, replacing certain notes, using more distant harmonics... hiding the tonic.

At this point I can even be very precise, and in my opinion, a key to interpreting the insertion of quartal chords into a tonal-based language derives precisely from this latter practice

Regarding “Quartal harmony”, I am providing a link to a live audio/video recording from one of my concerts, which contains parts where quartal harmony is well expressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2K7GyECYVg

Open content (youtube)

modale wrote:

Regarding "quartal harmony," I am providing a link to a live audio/video recording from one of my concerts, which contains parts where quartal harmony is well expressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2K7GyECYVg

Of those you pointed out, this is the one that moves me the most

Open content (youtube)

thanks for the opinion, however I believe that the listener must somehow make an effort to go towards the musician; the current and consumerist idea is that the musician must go exclusively and always towards the listener.

modale wrote:

thanks for the opinion, however I believe that the listener must somehow make an effort to go towards the musician; the current and consumerist idea is that the musician must go exclusively and always towards the listener.

A topic that is always current, it was being discussed in the topic on contemporary music.

... if the listener must go towards the musician, clearly the dynamics of aesthetics are introduced, so I am not very far off track in maintaining what I wrote here:

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/909-musica-contemporanea/page__st__40

Sorry, I wanted to ask something.

In the case of a turnaround

C+/ A- / D-7 / G7

substituting, how many varieties can be obtained?

Among the many, does this one fit?

C+ / C#°/ D-7 / G7

And this one?

C7 / B7 / Bb7 / G

raffaeleb wrote:

Sorry, I wanted to ask something.

In the case of a turnaround

C+/ A- / D-7 / G7

substituting, how many varieties can be obtained?

Among the many, does this one fit?

C+ / C#°/ D-7 / G7

Sure, but do you mean the half-diminished on C#, so C#°7... right?