Who knows more about music, a conservatory teacher or a famous DJ? Let's compare classical music with pop music with a concrete reflection...

Even if they are often so, they prefer versions of the classics that are often ruined and made ridiculous. Dance music from the 90s onwards has caused no small amount of damage from this point of view.

oh dear Daniele!... The Musical Offering (oops, Das Musikalische Opfer) is not something to be offered... Whoever gets there, gets there.

Regarding your last question, and Piccinesco's reflections, I reiterate until death:

Basic musical education!!! Discovering hot water.

Neither more nor less than what is done for Italian Literature.

This is how taste is formed > by proposing things, without fanaticism or dogmatism.

A bit like saying: now that you are grown up and living alone, you are free to eat at McDonald's every day, but you cannot go around saying that a risotto, a minestrone, a ragù, or a carbonara—you don't know what they are. When I was the one cooking for you, I would propose them to you every now and then.

Here is Piccinesco: the "reflection on the level of knowledge that many people have" is, for me, a road that begins and ends here.

Today, Italian schools don't even propose a fried egg: the sonata op. 27 no. 2

(with all due respect to Beethoven's sonata and the fried egg. I love them both)

Who? Who in Italy has an interest in not changing this situation?

Change that could be made without spending a single Euro...

I don't understand, but is this a discussion about music education? Because the topic was something else and I don't understand where you are trying to go: is someone who knows classical music and knows that it could have influenced other musical genres perhaps better than someone who doesn't realize it?

Because to me it seems like this is exclusively what is being said: I am aware of the Greco-Christian influences in music and he is not: that is the difference. (By the way, what about the influences from Africa?)

Ok, it is an objective fact, knowledge vs. ignorance, we know perfectly well who wins.

But then why not go even further into specifics? Who knows how to - truly - analyze Beethoven? Or understand within an improvisation why the soloist is playing certain notes rather than others, what changes from one solo to another? Who knows how to use, I don't know, a Mini Moog or how to set up a Hammond organ? If we are talking about more conscious musical listening, I believe that then we shouldn't limit ourselves to saying 'We recognize the presence of the V in a disco music track,' I think we should go deeper, precisely because we were the first to recognize that music always contains something more than what we expected.

No, it is not that those who know classical music are better, knowing that much of the light, rock, and other genre production has used themes that are recognizable to some, but not all; nonetheless, one cannot know everything.

What I meant, and what I mean, is more about the sensitivity with which one listens to something rather than musical education (which is useful, and certainly necessary to know what one is doing and what one is listening to, serving to provide more means to understand and appreciate everything).

It is absolutely natural that everyone possesses their own sensitivity and cannot change it from one moment to the next; after all, there are "cases" of people who at first glance seem rude or arrogant, but who ultimately reveal a passion for music mistreated by others who might be spoiled brats or from the "upper class" (with 200 B, BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB), and it is equally natural that if a person does not demonstrate a certain "sensitivity" (attention, curiosity, appreciation, wonder?) for a passion of Bach, they might be more sensitive than the enthusiast for the latter who, unlike their predecessor, fails to show sensitivity toward conduct that involves respect for others, and so on with examples of this kind.

The sensitivity I mean (to me) can also be possessed by someone like me (I am speaking for myself, not knowing how others are since I do not know them), someone who does not have a background in classical studies, who does not attend concert halls, who does not go to discos, who does not know composition nor knows how to play an instrument; so to say that when criticizing (both positively and negatively) a "curriculum" is not always necessary, which allows those who (often happens) take offense (even on behalf of third parties) to avoid saying "who are you to say this?", whereas if you judge positively "whether or not someone is someone" (in what sense though, in the environment, because if someone is well-known their judgment carries more weight, is above all criticism?) it falls away and everything is fine.

I made this example starting from a discussion that arose on Facebook, a discussion in which after listening to various piano pieces by a person, I wrote to them saying that, for me, the passages they used were a bit too static and predictable; I added nothing else. In response, a user wrote to me (who evidently felt personally attacked because he writes the same way) saying "how dare you say these things, don't you realize the grave damage you have caused this person", adding then "when there is criticism to be made (as if criticisms were only negative), it is better to write privately, whereas if you want to compliment, you can (do you understand? You can) do it publicly; I cannot stand critics precisely because they ruin careers", but what careers? If a person is unable to understand whether what they write is banal, predictable, redundant, or senseless (I have been told that I write senseless things), or brilliant, beautiful, interesting, and potentially improvable, another person, with their own limits, will point out (as a listener) that perhaps the path they have taken (which is nonetheless personal, so it is their choice, they absolutely should not try to change for others, without however considering themselves Christ on earth, albeit under false pretenses, because this is the little game many play using the word "humility", but when ever?) is a well-trodden path and even if it were, for that "genre," devoid of interesting insights (at least personally; then there is always someone who says "beautiful", "wonderful", "keep going like this" because they in turn expect such compliments or otherwise express them because, perhaps, they know nothing else, and here lies the point we were talking about this morning).

I am ignorant in many respects, but this does not limit me from appreciating Bach, Chopin, and many others, just as I do not despise masterpieces of light music and other genres; however (and here I am not using euphemisms, almost to the point of being a racist) when faced with certain truly stupid music, because it exists and unfortunately one has to endure it when someone "proposes" it in bulk, it is difficult to be understanding.

Regardless of the effort a musician must make to study their instrument or instruments, a composer to advance in their studies, or a singer to train their voice, I do not mind at all; but thinking back to the 90s (it was a trauma for me, ironically speaking) when Pinocchio's music was used to create absolute nonsense—excuse me, but censorship should have made an appearance there, because certain things are absolutely incomprehensible; one really doesn't understand how they can be liked. In this sense, one must flip everything around and say (in my own case) "I am stupid because I cannot grasp the greatness of those pieces (so defaced and ruined, I add); let it be clear, I am not implying that those who do not listen to classical music are stupid, but seriously speak and"}

sarcastically about myself as if I were stupid for the fact that I didn't understand anything at all about those years, could it be?

micamahler wrote:

I don't understand, but is this a discussion about music education? Because the topic was something else and I don't understand where you are trying to go.

The logic, so far, is this:

Does guy A or guy B know more? Guy B knows more (so the initiator of the discussion answered themselves). But then why does guy A earn more?... Matters of marketability > matter of preference (of tastes) > how is taste formed? (in the musical field)

Answer (mine, debatable) > through music education.

Where the discussion might go instead, I am unable to predict. Nor do I care to know in advance.

(a thanks to Emanuele)

I haven't expressed an opinion yet, but the "conservatory" specification doesn't add value to Maestro... a famous DJ can, in turn, be a Maestro.

mmmhmm, so what?

The "butto" [throwing shade] on the dramatic (ironically): the DJ is definitely overrated, I mean in terms of how they are perceived; advertising carries a lot of weight in this. Sometimes you see those advertising "banners" where the night's headliners are announced, all reinforced with the word "event" or otherwise "evento," but an event of what? Sorry, but I just can't bring myself to like these DJs, who as people I might even get along with (maybe they wouldn't with me), but to me it all seems excessively hyped. I have always had the feeling (and the conviction, which is not absolute, because for example in metal you cannot expect to play "with delicacy" or "with springs") that substance—in this case, regarding club music, properly defined as dance (the kind that has nothing to do with tracks from the 80s and 90s, but more recent ones)—is directly proportional to the volume at which it is listened to or presented: while it remains true that symphonic music produces very high volume levels in some cases, this is not due to particular and powerful sound systems, but rather to the composer's indications as well as the conductor's directives; conversely, a piece of music (let's take one of the worst pieces ever proposed, Pinocchio in a version that isn't even dance, let's say from a landfill) that presupposes high volumes has little power in itself, so the increase in volume serves to fill the lack of substance, of quality. Good music maintains its strength even at minimum volume levels.

Well LucaCavaliere, I didn't want to irritate you, I sincerely hadn't grasped these posts regarding taste and I wouldn't see the pattern that way, but anyway, perhaps even in this it is a matter of taste.

LucaCavaliere wrote:

dearest Daniele!... the Musical Offering (ops. Das Musikalische Opfer) is not something to be offered... Whoever gets there, gets there.

Regarding your last question, and Piccinesco's reflections, I reiterate unto death:

Basic musical education!!! Discovering hot water.

No more and no less than what is done for Italian Literature.

This is how taste is formed > by proposing things, without fanaticism or dogmatism.

A bit like saying: now that you are grown up and living alone, you are free to eat at McDonald's every day, but you cannot go around saying that a risotto, a minestrone, a ragù, or a carbonara—you don't know what they are. When I was cooking for you, I would propose them to you every now and then.

Here is Piccinesco: the "reflection on the level of knowledge that many people have" is, for me, a road that begins and ends here.

Today, Italian schools don't even propose a fried egg: the sonata op. 27 no. 2

(with all due respect to Beethoven's sonata and the fried egg. I adore both)

Who? Who in Italy has an interest in not changing this situation?

A change that could be made without spending a single Euro...

Yes Luca, it is so and, setting aside every shred of "political correctness" that I have tried to maintain until now, I affirm: it is above all a matter of musical education and, dear Micamahler, I am not talking about that musical education that allows you to analyze a musical piece in minute detail. I am talking about that musical education that can give everyone the basic knowledge of music upon which our musical culture rests.

Musical culture - like any other culture - makes the difference.

In Germany this happens and everyone - indiscriminately everyone - has this basic musical culture.

In Italy, no!

But one also sees the difference between Germany and the rest of Europe, from every point of view.

ps: @ Micamahler

The influences that African culture may have on our culture can be measured in a little while, not now! And therefore, this has nothing to do with this discussion!"

I mentioned Africa because we were talking about - for example - Pharrell Williams. It would be absurd to think that his music is simply the result of European culture and nothing else

in my opinion, you are making a mishmash.

And if we talk about "origins," everyone has an origin more original than the other's.

Perhaps I am exaggerating, but I experience discussions like "eh, but how many of them know what music history is" or "but how many of them would be willing to appreciate anything else" as wrong arguments, bigoted ways to demonstrate one's own moral superiority. Which, moreover, in this case is not the moral superiority of the classical music world against the house world, but the moral superiority of Luca and Daniele towards their peers.

When I tell you that "average" orchestral players don't know much about music history, do you believe me or not???

If we want to assert that we are better listeners than most listeners, then that is another matter. And indeed, here we are telling each other that we look for beautiful things in both pop and classical... but if we make a general argument, then we must relate ourselves to the world. And in the world, there are people who dedicate themselves to music and people who do not dedicate themselves to music. ALL, and I say ALL, my friends who play rock are amply capable of listening to classical music and understanding and appreciating it. Even Marco. They have their passions and choose afterwards. And this is to remind you that we are not saying that those who make rap must APPRECIATE classical, but they should only understand it, in a sense. To say that those who make rap must necessarily appreciate classical means asserting a priori a necessity of that type of music, an obligation.

And, I repeat, it is a risky argument. Because then I come along and tell you all that you are a bunch of ignoramuses because you don't listen to Monteverdi madrigals :-)

You continue to relate the discussion to your values, your passions, your training.

danielescarpetti wrote:

The influences that African culture may have on our culture will be measurable in a little while, not now!

It has probably been influencing us for a century already... the oldest Jazz music is from 1920, so I really think it is right under everyone's noses. I imagine we understand each other.

But without being biased (I can already imagine hearing the comments whispered below), I know... but you should also know, that Ligeti did an excellent job, on the edge of legality regarding copyright, on African polyrhythm (does the word Pygmy direct the issue more effectively?)... not to mention that Ligeti and Reich were literally spellbound by Pygmy songs.

For me, the influences are very measurable... if one wants to. How many composers today take inspiration from Ligeti? (maybe they don't know it, eh! But that's another story). Here is a little example.

I subscribe once again to what Thallo says, my impression is exactly the same but, as usual, he expresses himself better

Thallo is right, I don't deny involving myself, who I am, the moment I express an opinion, but I would like to emphasize that, if it is true (and it is, because both music history and many compositions are unknown to me) that as an ignorant person in the matter I could not speak with 100% authority, could the video (for example) that I post be considered objectively "a scandal"!? What must a dj (picked at random) know how to do? These people for me practically ruin all the music they intend to... remix? Well

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=2EaE0_gQLw0

Open content (youtube)

A single "me", without delay:)

@ Thallo

Moral superiority??? . . . Of whom ??? . . . :lol: . . . give us a break :lol:

LucaCavaliere wrote:

@ Thallo

Moral superiority??? . . . Of whom ??? . . . :lol: . . . give me a break :lol:

Thank you Luca, you have caused me considerable embarrassment. I didn't know how to respond.

Claudio, believe me well for the affection I feel for you: I have innumerable flaws and I am perfectly aware of them. Among these flaws is a notable ignorance,,, and therefore, I am the last person who can claim the right and the arrogance of having moral superiority on these topics as on many others.

I am just someone who is desperately trying to swim against the current - on almost everything and, again believe me: it is an enormous effort - and trying to save classical music, high art... from total extinction because I think it will be - if that is how it goes! - only a great loss for all of humanity: and here I also answer a question from Emanuele.

As for the rest, moral superiority, you know exactly where I claim it and demand it for myself: for the inner and outer honesty which I do not want and will never want to fail. no matter what and no matter how it goes.

And before anyone answers me, I answer myself: Amen!!!!

Piccinesco wrote:

Thallo is right, I don't hide the fact that I involve myself, who I am, at the moment I express an opinion, but I would like to be able to emphasize that, if it is true (and it is, because both music history and many compositions are unknown to me) that as an ignorant person on the subject I could not speak with 100% authority, the video (for example) that I post could (should?) be considered objectively "a scandal"!? What must a dj (picked at random) know how to do? These people for me practically ruin all the music they intend to... remix? Well

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=2EaE0_gQLw0

A final thought to our friend Piccinesco, who moves me with that adorable kitten of his: I don't think the dj in question has ruined this music; to me, it actually all seems very beautiful. Seeing all those infinite masses of young people cheering to the notes of the Adagio - revised but not ruined - by Samuel Barber moves me, electrifies me, and moves me to tears.

I would just like to be sure that all those young people know that that music is by Samuel Barber: that is what I want. That, yes!

And now let's go eat the minestrone that we all - including you Claudio, let it be clear - have contributed to making and cooking. No?

Open content (youtube)

but they don't know it! Just as you probably don't know millions of things that, for someone else, are fundamental :-)

that's the point, you think knowing something about Barber is important and important for music. But it isn't. Or rather, it is for those who know it, but it doesn't diminish the "value" of those who don't.

And all this is an old man's talk

P.S.

at this moment next to me are Marco and a friend of ours, Paoletta, who think they are going to hear Metallica and Faith No More paying 80 euros for a ticket... in my opinion Faith No More is worth it, but they are, incredibly, the opening act... if all the music "masters" I know spent 80 euros on concert tickets, the music market would be in better shape

thallo wrote:

but they don't know it! Just as you probably don't know millions of things that, for someone else, are fundamental :-)

that's the point, you think knowing something about Barber is important and important for music. But it isn't. Or rather, it is for those who know it, but it doesn't diminish the "value" of those who don't.

And all this is an old man's talk

P.S.

at this moment next to me are Marco and a friend of ours, Paoletta, who think they are going to hear Metallica and Faith No More paying 80 euros for a ticket... in my opinion Faith No More is worth it, but they are, incredibly, the opening act... if all the "masters" of music I know spent 80 euros on concert tickets, the music market would be in better shape

In fact, I would put Faith No More as the main group and Metallica as the support.

Anyway, I fully subscribe to what Daniele says when he says

"I am just someone desperately trying to swim against the current - on almost everything and, again believe me: it is a beastly effort - and trying to save classical music, high art... from total extinction because I think it will be - if it turns out that way! - only a great loss for all of humanity".

P.S. I will also contribute to the music market by going to see James Taylor in Padua in April.