Restoration of Schimmel 208 piano - Hammer selection

I don't know, you should ask him this. Get in touch privately, there are private messages. I'm going to sleep. I'm fainting. Until next time ;-)

I don't know. Simone, I'm not following you. Suddenly you tell me, out of nowhere, that I must distance myself from the forum, as if mine were a well-known and notorious, plague-like, unwanted presence at the center of a grand gala dinner, when I find you all likable and after it seemed to me that the discussion with the Maestro had resolved in mutual sympathy.

But if you don't want me, I'll leave... it's no problem... what can I say...

Have a good day. See you soon.

I have already given you my reasons and I will summarize them for you: I believe the way you and Fra classified a category of technicians who work honestly (albeit within the limits of their abilities) and a hammer manufacturer is unjustified, keeping in mind that you are not qualified technicians and that neither of you has any industrial experience regarding the production of piano spare parts; therefore, I am led to wonder, if I may say so "almost obviously," how you can express such peremptory judgments, yet my reminder is judged by you as "scandalous and surreal." There is nothing subjective here, it seems to me a matter of fact...

Starting by comparing those who carry out their work honestly to a form of delinquency puts me in a difficult position, and I do not want to repeat mistakes already made in the past. If complaints are received for what is said on the forum, the administrators are responsible first and foremost, and even if we can then pass the ball to the person directly concerned by the post, they are still hassles that I no longer want to resolve. For me, managing the forum must be a source of relaxation, not stress from running after legal studies and making a million phone calls as happened less than a year ago to resolve troubles created because of an old forum member.

Turning back to repeat to you... Respect the netiquette and the instructions of the moderators and you will always be welcome! If a moderator reprimands you, there is a reason that you probably do not know, but there is one!

PS. If you are anxious to know why you were reprimanded, you can always ask via private message, but a rule of netiquette that you accepted during registration is that decisions made by the staff are final and it is not appropriate to discuss them or ask for clarifications publicly; private messages exist for that purpose.

Provided that:

"Not every strong or pungent expression that creates disappointment is automatically offensive for the purposes of criminal liability in crimes against honor; the existence of an offense cannot be anchored to the sensitivity of the (alleged) offended party" (Cass. Pen. 16.02.2011 n. 10188).

i could likewise say that the judgments you freely make about my alleged profession or my life are injurious to my person, even wishing me a "serene future." I invite you, as I do with myself, to engage in serious reflection regarding this.

I have also not named any technicians; I have neither harmed nor offended anyone's honor or dignity. At most, I only said that I am tired of using Abel hammers. It is as if I had said "the Ferrari makes me feel like sh..." There is no criminal relevance and, in any case, I never put it that way.

Article 21 of the Italian Constitution: "Everyone has the right to freely express their thoughts through speech, writing, and any other means of dissemination," and I believe we have done nothing more than this, without the slightest use of profanity or slander.

If there were problems in the past, I am sorry, but I have nothing to do with it. Furthermore, I don't even know Fra, whom you seem to list as if he were my "associate":

It seems to me that I have respected all the rules provided by the forum and, although for me the web is just "the web" and not real life, I find that my person does not deserve this situation and all the allusions and inferences that have been proposed here.

TheSimon wrote:

PS. If you are anxious to know why you were reprimanded, you can always ask via private message, but a rule of netiquette that you accepted during registration is that decisions made by the staff are final and it is not appropriate to discuss them or ask for clarifications publicly; for that purpose, private messages exist.

I am not arguing. If you don't want me, I've said it, I won't write here anymore. No problem. But we were also talking about other things here... about second thoughts and intentions that did not concern me, stirred up by your previous experiences in which I personally have no part nor am I aware of.

Regarding the matter of private messages, this was perhaps a limitation of mine. I have never used them.

I am sorry that this dispute had to arise on my post in my absence. I hope you will be able to resolve it.
Forgive me for not updating it immediately, but I have had many commitments lately.
First of all, I thank Maestro Ferrarelli for the wishes.

In the meantime, a new technician came to inspect my piano, and apparently the hammer rail is not original; it is Abel. Then I removed the action and understood it myself—with the photo you will know why... so I ask myself two questions:

1) How did the other technician fail to notice? Having worked at Grotrian, Steinway, Petrof, with plenty of experience behind him.
2) The previous technician said that the first bass hammer, which is huge, had nothing to do with the others and that it had been put there at random. Instead (a hypothesis that I also support), the other one told me that it could be a facsimile of the originals.

We talked about the hammer rail. Initially, he said that a good hammer rail costs 1000-2000 euros just for materials; this sounded wrong to me, and I reported what Fra told me—that the original hammer rail for the Schimmel 208 is in the catalog and costs around 350 euros. Do you know what he replied to me?
That Renner products are Made in China, but how is that possible? Is it true? And he told me that they must be ordered from Piatino in Turin, which is the distributor for Italy, and that for a client who had to change the repetitions, some poor quality products arrived—made in China, precisely—and were thrown in the trash.

Then we talked at length; basically, he says he doesn't want to change anything, that there is still felt left, that one needs to work on the sound—the opposite of what the other one told me—but I notice that in certain hammers the felt is harder than in others, and so on.
Then both were in agreement in saying that at the factory they would replace the repetitions, because there is a lot of noise on the return and they are no longer good.

After talking about tuning and false tones, he says, "Ah well, but with this piano you have to practice; if I had to give a concert at Carnegie Hall with this piano, the matter would be different."
"Why shouldn't one play well everywhere? Shouldn't one build the musical idea at home?" I replied. Then he refers back to the phrase "but at concerts you will always play on different pianos, you will find poorer instruments, concert pianists play the same, all the work done at home goes to waste bla bla bla," etc., well, you get the idea. Just for information... he is the apprentice of the technician who sold it to me...

I discovered that in 1996 he gave a concert with that piano, eheheh. So it was already used for rental. He said, "This piano has fought battles."

Honestly, now I am more confused than persuaded; I am really relying on you, since they all say different things and honestly, I don't feel like taking anyone's word for it. I don't know who to call anymore.

Let's go look at the photos

P.S. He told me that the keys were impregnated with a particular resin, the name of which I don't remember.

And it goes on, you just don't understand me, you keep talking when you should stop... I'm sorry, I am forced to push you away.

@ Mephisto it is not true that Renner products are Made in China, Piatino is a serious company so it is not correct to say these things.

Unfortunately, Abel has nothing to do with your piano; the excessive noise on the return is due, in my opinion, to the springs being too heavily loaded; an adjustment of the springs, the position of the pusher, and the height of the repetition lever would fix things.

In many Schimmel pianos, it has happened to find Hertz springs with brass that is over-tempered, so they result in being weak.... They lose their tension quickly; perhaps that is why they have bent them beyond measure (it can be seen from your photos).

I would put back the original hammer rail and restore things.... As far as the excessive repairs go, don't worry because the piano is new.

The cost of replacing the hammer rail is not so much the hammer but the labor; 2000 euros seems reasonable to me as long as they return the action to you in working order....

The most expensive hammer is the one marked Steinway, which is sold for 770 euros plus VAT, a little more for the grand piano models....

Unfortunately, you have discovered what I was hypothesizing. If you don't know who else to call, I understand; try to get several different opinions....

Mephisto93 wrote:

P.S. He told me that the keys were impregnated with a particular resin, I don't remember what it's called.

Probably the hammers were impregnated with nitrocellulose.... To make it sound more.... Probably because the hammer rail they installed didn't give the desired response for a two-meter instrument.... probably it's the usual problem: first they destroy the hammers with needle strikes and then they impregnate them to make them sound, but it's just a hypothesis since I can't see it, so I can't tell you.

The fact remains that Schimmel uses Renner hammer rails, I don't know the difficulty of the choice.

I don't know the reason for the choice, I meant to write.... One could try to make it sound good keeping the hammers that are there; obviously if a result is not obtained, the hammer rail will have to be changed, at which point since one exists, I would use theirs.

@Fra thanks for the answers, very kind of you. Being a survivor of this experience, I am wary of trusting them; basically, there are only those three in the area.

No no, he meant exactly a resin with which the keys were impregnated, not the hammers, a job that was done. You can see smudges even from behind, in fact, when I photographed the hammer rails; he told me it's an operation that only his master knows in the area.

@Simone I just noticed your request for a photo of the room in one of the previous messages, I'll take it now, even though I've moved it, it's quite a small space

What do you mean key impregnation???? Did they replace the covers? If you can, take a photo, I'm curious....

Well! I've just returned from Frankfurt and I'm reading these latest posts. I am truly sorry and annoyed. I think Simone's decisions are more than fair. Furthermore, these suggestions do nothing but disorient the readers and/or the interested party. They are even confusing keys with hammers!!! It is being said that some technician "breaks them" and then soaks them, etc.. I don't like these preconceptions and these "definitive" opinions from a super expert at all—not that I feel I am one in an absolute sense, especially when they must be stated "from a distance". One must always see the instrument and not photos and, in the event of an examination, know how to, of course, substantiate our opinions with convincing arguments or, even better, with suggestions for intervention. If one is capable of replacing someone thought to have talked nonsense, one can propose oneself and step into the field. In my opinion, it is less loyal to pass judgment from afar based on one's own similar experiences. Anyway, free and polite diversity of opinion is legitimate, indeed precious. Every case is different. Respect must, I say, must reign in our Forum. We are not children and we know well how to distinguish or deduce if someone who comes into our home is incompetent and/or telling fairy tales! I told the "little story" of the bricklayers to suggest how sometimes we fail to immediately distinguish true competence. It can happen to anyone. We have the pretension of being here and having opened this discussion Forum to "suggest"—I say "suggest"—what we think is right "in our opinion", without apostrophizing and/or judging anyone. It must be, I repeat, up to the interested party to choose the suggestion they deem wisest and, if necessary, correct course. Then, sincerely, if we reach the point of citing criminal sentences from the Court of Cassation, then we are no longer in line with the "tone" of voice we want to reign in this place. I am sorry, however, that these things are happening.

Addressing Mephisto: I would like to say many things and if we weren't so far apart, I would gladly come to give you a hand. The rests, in my opinion... in my opinion, make noise, but they don't need to be changed. One must perform a pre-adjustment of the spring relative to the escapement lever, which must be, yes, slightly lower than the level of the repetition lever, but taking into account the strength of the spring. Otherwise, you feel under the finger, and also as noise, that little thud of the abrupt return of the lever against its stop button. Clear? I suggest: good regulation, real, serious, correct. Tuning and voicing of the hammers. Then one will be able to truly judge the performance of the instrument. Sensing the "level of dissatisfaction," it seems to me to understand that it depends not so much on the type of hammer felt or not, but rather on the setup of the instrument. It is certain that if it has been soaked too much, it could be difficult to voice it well. In short, many factors interact and lead to a result, even the most unexpected ones, especially regarding regulation and voicing. I hope you can find the right person who has the sensitivity to understand what disturbs you and distances you from satisfaction with your instrument

Sometimes it happens that they overdo it with the needle and then are forced to soak [the hammers] to go back, obtaining only a more metallic sound because, having destroyed the fibers (I mean breaking through them), the elasticity of the felt has been lost....

Anyway Mephisto, I am curious to see this "soaking" of the keys with the smudges you were talking about. This mysterious technique that only your technicians know interests me

Am I the only one feeling disappointment over the ban of user davehammerklavier?

Well, he brought his direct experience; if I were the administrator, I would reinstate him

Perhaps one thing is not clear... The decisions we make regarding user bans are UNASSAILABLE. It is a rule that you all accepted during registration. If you do not agree with the ways in which we manage the site or with the rules we have set, you are free to go elsewhere; we are not forcing anyone to stay here... Moreover, I do not believe you signed up to judge our actions, therefore, I invite you to return to the topic and stay out of the decisions made by the staff.

@Mephisto I was looking at the photos again. The first hammer should be the original one, see how the key is larger than the others? It's a Renner of the maximum size, the one that the piano is originally fitted with.... In my opinion, the Abel you have there isn't right for that piano, it's not its own. They probably recovered the first hammer because they lost a hammer from the new set. Ugly work to see and probably also to hear.....